4.5 and up is a great policy. I had tontrain myself thats its the size of the neck not the size of the rack. Now the rack means very little to me. But a huge muscled up neck……its go time
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Bucks - before and after rut
- Thread starter Outdoor Enthusiast
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Same exact experience in woodland habitat. I've only had one buck since about that time frame until now that was 7 1/2 that I was able to keep track of. He died of old age. In that time frame, I've had and killed quite a few 5 years olds but probably only had 2 or maybe 3, 6 year olds.
I've got buddies that run farms in Texas and they are like "yeah you gotta let them get 6 or older to get real big"
I always laugh at them and tell them they have lost their damn mind, our deer mostly die before they get that old.Yeah buddy. It can be hard to pass up a big 3 year old but most of them blow up at 4. It took me a long time to get to that place and then it also took me a while to figure out most of the 4 year olds I kept track of that went into winter surviving the season never made it out to be huntable at 5. I seem to lose a ton of those bucks to EHD.
killingtime 41
Well-Known Member
3.5 year old or older is what I will shoot. If it gets my adrenaline pumping then o shoot if it doesn't I don't. I really only hunt public so 3.5 is hard to find sometimes. That's why I don't shoot many bucks. It's what I've come to grips with. Especially those areas same as statewide. Good luck
I've tried. Doesn't work. If a property has room for two mature bucks then it doesn't matter how many young bucks you pass up. You'll only ever average 2 mature bucks. In my experience the herd self regulates in terms of buck age structure/dispersion.
Those younger bucks grow up and leave when there no longer is a place for them. More than anything bucks of all ages 2yrs+ come and go but the average age structure throughout the year repeats year after year. Now I have been able to increase carry capacity with habitat work which increases the number of bucks on the property, but it's across all ages so age structure doesn't change.
Point being it's impossible to stack a place with mature bucks. Nature doesn't seem to allow it.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Ski, just keep preaching it brother! You're dead on the money, and I have the hardest time explaining this to hunters and getting them to believe it.
I've had the privilege to work with properties large and small. I've had clients with under 100 acres to work with, and then some giant clubs and private properties (14,000 acres being the largest). On the largest properties, have we been able to improve the buck age structure? Yes, dramatically so. But on the size properties most of us have to work with? Not much. I've been able to help average-sized property clients increase the total number of bucks using their place, but like you stated, the age structure pretty much stays the same year after year.
Below are two graphs from my property. The first is the actual buck population, and the second is the buck age structure. In the first graph, it's clear we've been able to produce fairly dramatic changes in buck population over the years through habitat manipulation. Yet the second graph - buck age structure - shows virtually no change over the years. And my place, at just shy of 500-acres, is not a small property.
How big of a property do you need to alter buck age structure? I don't know the answer to that, but it's going to be in the thousands of acres.
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BSK
Well-Known Member
Dumluck,
I agree with you. On clients' properties, I see bucks simply explode from 3 to 4 all the time. At 3 they're, "Nice, but..." Then at 4 they're suddenly, "Holy smokes!" However, my place is very different. I suspect it is because my neighbors are all BIG agriculture, but we see the biggest explosion at 3 1/2. We've photo censused and killed some whopper 3 1/2s. Some in the 150s. But these same top-end 3 1/2s don't add anything with age, beyond more mass (but often at the expense of shorter tines).
BSK
Well-Known Member
If smaller-acreage landowners/managers think that fact is distressing - that they cannot have a major impact on buck age structure - just remember how percentages work. If you can hold 10% of the buck population as mature, and you have 10 bucks, that's one mature buck. Now increase the buck population to 20 total bucks with 10% mature. Now you have two mature bucks. So, although buck age structure is very difficult to improve on smaller properties, dramatically increasing the carrying capacity and attractiveness of the property can dramatically increase the number of older age-class bucks you have using the property.
And to be honest, few hunters actually care about the buck age structure. What they care about is how many "target" bucks are using the property. By increasing the population, you can increase the number of target bucks. My family members that hunt our property don't give a rip about buck age structure data. They only care about how many harvestable bucks are out there. And we've been able to change that from 14-17 in the past, to now 20-26. THAT they care about!
And to be honest, few hunters actually care about the buck age structure. What they care about is how many "target" bucks are using the property. By increasing the population, you can increase the number of target bucks. My family members that hunt our property don't give a rip about buck age structure data. They only care about how many harvestable bucks are out there. And we've been able to change that from 14-17 in the past, to now 20-26. THAT they care about!
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
There is a work around....
Kill the mature buck early. Years we do that, we almost always have another mature buck move in and stay within a couple weeks.
3 years ago we ended up killing the bully 5.5yo early (he took over the area about a month prior to ML and ran off all the older bucks) another 4.5yo cull opening 1st week of rifle that had just shifted on and we had no pics of yet, then another 4.5yo last week of December (again, who had just shifted in and we had no pics of).
All 3 out of the same stand.
100%. The work is not futile. There's a whole lot more to it than focusing on age structure. Just have to be cognizant of the fact that in order to increase the number of "shooters" everything else comes with it, meaning you've got to keep enough cover and food for all. Can't just get grandpa. You gotta take the whole fam damily!
Outdoor Enthusiast
Well-Known Member
Interesting. That is my theory for the second mature buck I killed this year. I killed one that I had all summer and fall the first week of MZ. Killed the second soon afterwards in the same core area.
If you kill early enough that absolutely happens. Works out awesome for properties with more than one hunter. I've noticed the Odysseus effect several times after killing an old buck. Other suiters come checking things out, making for a brief time of multiple mature bucks before one settles into the position. Sometimes there's mature buck I've never seen before, which is always fun.
BSK
Well-Known Member
I'm running into the problem that, despite the greatly reduced hunting pressure surrounding us, we can't hold the mature bucks. We are seeing a considerable increase in 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s, but declining number of mature bucks. And I believe the reason is the vastly lower hunting pressure on neighboring properties. We have the best habitat around, yet why would a mature buck hang out there - with all our hunting pressure - when they can hang out on the neighbors' properties and be safe from hunters.
Now the greatly reduced hunting pressure on surrounding properties is helping us dramatically in getting 2 1/2s to 3 1/2, but once they're beyond that age, they've figured out my place is NOT the place to be in November!
Now the greatly reduced hunting pressure on surrounding properties is helping us dramatically in getting 2 1/2s to 3 1/2, but once they're beyond that age, they've figured out my place is NOT the place to be in November!
It's been my observation that old bucks value solitude above all else. They're not social creatures like all other deer. Also after a buck has reached skeletal maturity he no longer requires heavy calories, unlike a doe who needs it for annual reproduction as long as she's alive. Of all deer the old bucks require the least.
The catch 22 is that enhanced habitat attracts deer numbers by providing ample feeding opportunity and social hubs. That's literally everything an old buck doesn't need nor want. It's quite possibly repulsive to him. Trying to find the balance is the hard part because it's impossible to know exactly where you hit a point of diminishing returns, especially when we gets years like this where nature throws a curve ball of drought & no acorns.
Outdoor Enthusiast
Well-Known Member
JCDEERMAN
Well-Known Member
THAT is interesting!
BSK
Well-Known Member
About 30% of our property is impenetrable (to humans) jungle the deer are loving. Only one neighbor has any cover at all. We are drawing an insane number of deer and total bucks to our place once the adjoining bottomland agriculture has been harvested, but not mature bucks. Before our last timber cut, we would average around four to five 3 1/2 year-old bucks each year. Since the cut, we've about doubled that number, to 8-10. But mature bucks are declining. And those 3 1/2s are not getting killed by neighbors. Virtually no hunting on surrounding properties. Those 3 1/2 bucks just aren't using our place once they reach maturity.
BSK
Well-Known Member
I have experienced what you are saying many many times over. I have a tree that I have killed countless mature bucks out of. The key is being in a unique natural travel corridor. If a new buck has never been there, he doesn't know to avoid the area. I seldom get busted there due to the lay of the land and the way the thermals flow through this spot. It is a very unique spot and one I am very blessed to own.
