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Bucks - before and after rut

BSK said:
Ski, just keep preaching it brother! You're dead on the money, and I have the hardest time explaining this to hunters and getting them to believe it.

I've had the privilege to work with properties large and small. I've had clients with under 100 acres to work with, and then some giant clubs and private properties (14,000 acres being the largest). On the largest properties, have we been able to improve the buck age structure? Yes, dramatically so. But on the size properties most of us have to work with? Not much. I've been able to help average-sized property clients increase the total number of bucks using their place, but like you stated, the age structure pretty much stays the same year after year.

Below are two graphs from my property. The first is the actual buck population, and the second is the buck age structure. In the first graph, it's clear we've been able to produce fairly dramatic changes in buck population over the years through habitat manipulation. Yet the second graph - buck age structure - shows virtually no change over the years. And my place, at just shy of 500-acres, is not a small property.

How big of a property do you need to alter buck age structure? I don't know the answer to that, but it's going to be in the thousands of acres.
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Very eye opening graphs! Thanks for sharing!
 
Ski said:
It's been my observation that old bucks value solitude above all else. They're not social creatures like all other deer. Also after a buck has reached skeletal maturity he no longer requires heavy calories, unlike a doe who needs it for annual reproduction as long as she's alive. Of all deer the old bucks require the least.

The catch 22 is that enhanced habitat attracts deer numbers by providing ample feeding opportunity and social hubs. That's literally everything an old buck doesn't need nor want. It's quite possibly repulsive to him. Trying to find the balance is the hard part because it's impossible to know exactly where you hit a point of diminishing returns, especially when we gets years like this where nature throws a curve ball of drought & no acorns.
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Very interesting, and I will say that I agree with what you are saying 100 percent!
 
Hillbilly Hunter said:
I have experienced what you are saying many many times over. I have a tree that I have killed countless mature bucks out of. The key is being in a unique natural travel corridor. If a new buck has never been there, he doesn't know to avoid the area. I seldom get busted there due to the lay of the land and the way the thermals flow through this spot. It is a very unique spot and one I am very blessed to own.
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I have seen these types of set-ups before. They are often major funnels between two large patches of desirable habitat. Many, many deer filter through these and basically, they never get old or overhunted because of the number of "new" deer wandering through that don't know to avoid it.
 
BSK said:
And we've been able to change that from 14-17 in the past, to now 20-26. THAT they care about!
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These numbers are just crazy to me with the acreage your managing and hunting on. I've got lots of farms adding up into the thousands of acres and I'm very good at knowing what deer uses and doesn't use my farms from the use of cameras and lots of scouting through various methods. I'm not sure if I even have that number of bucks over 2.5 on all the farms I hunt combined. Unfortunately I'm not able to do major habitat improvements on these farms since I don't own any of them but I am able to increase habitat that exist. I've got big plans for one farm coming up next year if I can get all the work done. I expect to have to maintain this place for 3 years at the level I want to see any significant results.

One of the farms I have produces serious deer for woodland deer but I'm concerned about the future there. I have a couple "land managers" that think there is enough deer to "cull" premature bucks and they also think they should kill every doe they see. The carrying capacity is not even close to being touched by the population and the doe buck ratio is very good. I would in fact argue that we need to not shoot does for a couple years to raise the doe to buck ratio, I believe the bucks are killing each other fighting. We found 2 dead, and I had another one with a tine broke off in his neck in September.

I have tried my best to throw Bryan into that mix. I've requested for several years to let me bring him in to do an analysis on the area and give us all a plan. But unfortunately egos and narcissistic behavior is entirely too strong for these people to listen to an actual expert on the topic, which unfortunately is rampant within our society in every area.
 
Dumbluck said:
These numbers are just crazy to me with the acreage your managing and hunting on. I've got lots of farms adding up into the thousands of acres and I'm very good at knowing what deer uses and doesn't use my farms from the use of cameras and lots of scouting through various methods. I'm not sure if I even have that number of bucks over 2.5 on all the farms I hunt combined. Unfortunately I'm not able to do major habitat improvements on these farms since I don't own any of them but I am able to increase habitat that exist. I've got big plans for one farm coming up next year if I can get all the work done. I expect to have to maintain this place for 3 years at the level I want to see any significant results.

One of the farms I have produces serious deer for woodland deer but I'm concerned about the future there. I have a couple "land managers" that think there is enough deer to "cull" premature bucks and they also think they should kill every doe they see. The carrying capacity is not even close to being touched by the population and the doe buck ratio is very good. I would in fact argue that we need to not shoot does for a couple years to raise the doe to buck ratio, I believe the bucks are killing each other fighting. We found 2 dead, and I had another one with a tine broke off in his neck in September.

I have tried my best to throw Bryan into that mix. I've requested for several years to let me bring him in to do an analysis on the area and give us all a plan. But unfortunately egos and narcissistic behavior is entirely too strong for these people to listen to an actual expert on the topic, which unfortunately is rampant within our society in every area.
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I too am shocked by the number of bucks we can attract to our property during the season (we have VERY few that live there in summer). Part of it is location. My place is a block of ridge-and-hollow hardwoods between two major river system bottomlands. Deer use my place to move back and forth between the two bottomlands, so we get a lot of bucks moving back and forth, especially during the rut. But the massive habitat changes we've made have done even more to attract bucks during the fall. Honestly, my mind is boggled by the numbers.

I look at the data two ways. I look at the total number of unique bucks I catch on camera from August 1 to Jan 10., and then I will look at the numbers month by month during that time period. The number of unique bucks captured in a given month will be much lower than the total number over 6 months. Bucks come and bucks go. My primary focus is the month of November because that is the month we do the vast majority of our hunting. Over the last couple of years, we've been photographing around 45 unique bucks using the property in November, of which 20 will be older bucks (2 1/2+). That's WAY over what it used to be. Being a transition between two major agricultural bottomlands, creating a huge amount of cover and natural food sources, and experiencing a major decline in deer hunting pressure in the area (everyone has become duck hunters) has produced astounding changes.
 
This afternoon caught another mature one. Seems to be in good shape
 

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This buck went MIA on November 1. He returned this week. I know the angles are different, but this buck was an ham and he's lost a ton of weight. I have some others that the difference is far less noticeable.
 

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