Property has been logged over a few times over the past 30 years so not a tremendous amount of high value timber on the place. To make matters worse hardwood paperwood isn't worth a whole lot so having a bit of a tough time getting somebody lined up to clear off some timber. From a deer management standpoint how would it be to just set the area out in pines and then hedge cut or fell a lot of the remaining trees?
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Anybody ever set out pines in open hardwood stands??
- Thread starter Bushape
- Start date
DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
I dont have any experience with planting pine but would like to plant some in certain areas on our place to increase diversity. Hopefully those with more experience will comment on planting pine.
As for the trees you have. I would pick the areas you want to thicken up and hack-n-squirt the smaller stuff and double girdle any larger trees. Let the sunlight in and tons of forage will be generated along with some great cover. Dead trees left standing will be used by a variety of wildlife.
And I'm sure hinge cutting has its place but my concern with hinge cutting is the horizontal canopy thats created as the tree continues to grow...shading out even more of the forest floor...temporarily I guess the buds and new growth would be enjoyed by deer and you get cover close to ground quickly...but eventually the benifits fade. Also the effect on future timber value is concerning....I'd rather hack-n-squirt or double girdle any trash trees that are around any white oak or red oak you have and release them...giving them more nutrients and in turn generate more mast...all while creating thicker cover and preserving future timber values.
As for the trees you have. I would pick the areas you want to thicken up and hack-n-squirt the smaller stuff and double girdle any larger trees. Let the sunlight in and tons of forage will be generated along with some great cover. Dead trees left standing will be used by a variety of wildlife.
And I'm sure hinge cutting has its place but my concern with hinge cutting is the horizontal canopy thats created as the tree continues to grow...shading out even more of the forest floor...temporarily I guess the buds and new growth would be enjoyed by deer and you get cover close to ground quickly...but eventually the benifits fade. Also the effect on future timber value is concerning....I'd rather hack-n-squirt or double girdle any trash trees that are around any white oak or red oak you have and release them...giving them more nutrients and in turn generate more mast...all while creating thicker cover and preserving future timber values.
i planted 70 acres of pines in the 90s in all the open areas of my hardwoods forests with the intent of harvesting them decades later. May a few thinning cuts over the years, but now can't find a logger to cut them due to the us importing softwoods from Canada, Russia, etc, along with the market glut produced by 100s of thousands of acres of pines being planted across the south during that time. So, my pines grow, self thin, some die, and basically are stunted. They do enhance my hunting experience, though, as I regularly have deer run the edges and bed in the thicker areas.
MickThompson
Well-Known Member
If you hinge, do it strategically- plant some mast producing trees and use the hinging to fence the deer out of them
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
It's a little hard to tell from the pics because I can't look up and see the canopy and whether there's enough sunlight getting to the forest floor. The only way planted pine is gonna thrive is with sunlight…which is one reason they are so often set out after a clearcut. If you picked through it to open up holes in the canopy to plant a few pines the crop trees you leave will be the real benefactors; their crowns will just expand and re-close the canopy.
It looks like a good stand of young hardwood…if it were me I'd just do a crop tree release and let it go. Maybe something like this; keep those marked and cut or kill everything else. We've done this on hundreds of acres over the years and you won't find a better hardwood stand anywhere. High value species, tall, great form, well spaced…just puttin on girth.
It looks like a good stand of young hardwood…if it were me I'd just do a crop tree release and let it go. Maybe something like this; keep those marked and cut or kill everything else. We've done this on hundreds of acres over the years and you won't find a better hardwood stand anywhere. High value species, tall, great form, well spaced…just puttin on girth.
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bjohnson
Well-Known Member
This! I would never plant pines on our property. I'm trying to clear every acre of pine on our place. No valued added as a tree to benefit wildlife.
BSK
Well-Known Member
I would disagree with that!
In a purely hardwood environment, small patches of pine or one of the most powerful bedding cover habitat additions you can plant.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Bushape,
Pines don't do well when planted into thinned hardwoods. They will grow, but be stunted by competition.
I would look at hack-and-squirt and felling trash trees to open up the canopy and allow your oaks to grow.
Pines don't do well when planted into thinned hardwoods. They will grow, but be stunted by competition.
I would look at hack-and-squirt and felling trash trees to open up the canopy and allow your oaks to grow.
J.A.F.O.
Well-Known Member
I've used the "Craig Harper cocktail" with great success.
THE CRAIG HARPER COCKTAIL
Solution Rate
1. Triclopyr (Garlon 3A)
50%
2. Water*
40%
3. Imazapyr (Arsenal AC)
10%
4. (optional) Blue marking dye
*Water must be added second, between the two herbicides, to prevent coagulation.
BSK
Well-Known Member
This will work. And so will undiluted 48% Roundup concentrate!
BSK
Well-Known Member
Pines will do well in heavily thinned hardwoods, but not lightly thinned hardwoods. Below is a couple of pictures of our pine seedling planting after timber harvest. We planted 4,000 in patches, no patch is more than about 7 acres. The progression of pictures is only through 2 1/2 years. The 1.5 Gen seedlings we planted in early March of 2021 are now 3-9 feet tall. The shortest ones are the ones planted amongst lightly thinned timber. The tallest ones (9+ feet) are in more open areas. And this is extremely rough, rocky, dry ridge-top ground.
And deer now use these small pine plantings in their travel patterns. In fact, once the leaves are off, deer will detour away from their normal routes to travel through the pines. The young pines provide more visual cover than the grasses, briers, leafless saplings in the cut areas. The only problem is the number of young pines the bucks are rubbing to death. I almost shot a buck for the crime of killing some of my pines! If he hadn't looked right at me as he tore the little sapling to pieces...
And deer now use these small pine plantings in their travel patterns. In fact, once the leaves are off, deer will detour away from their normal routes to travel through the pines. The young pines provide more visual cover than the grasses, briers, leafless saplings in the cut areas. The only problem is the number of young pines the bucks are rubbing to death. I almost shot a buck for the crime of killing some of my pines! If he hadn't looked right at me as he tore the little sapling to pieces...
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Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
4 parts diesel + 1 part garlon 4a (the ester).
bjohnson
Well-Known Member
BSK
Well-Known Member
I want both, but in a pure hardwood stand, young pines will see more use than successional regrowth after year 4 or 5. And during the first 3-4 years, you basically have early successional growth where the pines are planted. The pines don't jump above the successional growth until about year 4.
bjohnson
Well-Known Member
I like to burn year 3 or 4 to reset the early successional growth but I'm also not managing just for deer. I try to keep as much nesting/brooding habitat for turkey and quail as possible plus it doubles as food and cover for deer.
To the OP, it's your property, I don't think there is a wrong answer, it just depends on your habitat goals.
Pines need full light when planted as seedlings, and they need the competition suppressed if you are planting a new stand or re-planting after a clearcut. I have planted pines since I was a kid and have had the privilege of replanting after stands I originally planted 30+ years earlier were clearcut. I have tried to introduce pines into existing hardwood stands and it doesn't work, they won't get enough light among standing trees. If you kill the standing trees, you will still have to come back and kill the seed bank. I have had success planting pines on skid trails through thinned hardwood stands, and along field edges of standing trees. In VA in order to get cost sharing for planting pines, they want you to cut in year one, come back and chemically kill the seed bank in year 2, and the replant in late winter/early spring of year 3, after everything else is dead. A couple of years ago, I was able to clearcut 6 acres in December, and convinced them to cost share on the replant 3 months later with a plan where I spot treated before the clear cut, and then went back and spot treated again after the replant. It worked very well. Here is a video I did explaining the technique:
BSK
Well-Known Member
I don't plant pines for the commercial value (don't plan on thinning or harvesting pines specifically), just for the habitat value. Because of this, I plant at a very wide spacing so I intentionally get a lot of regrowth/junk growing around them, and canopy closure doesn't occur as fast. I plant on a 10' x 10' spacing. Most commercial plantations are planted much closer than that.
For as far as the eye can see my property is surrounded by plantation pine ridges and hardwood hollows. Very few green fields in any direction. My goal would be to not only provide a legit food source but cover so that I am able to house a few deer.
I have a friend with Mossy Oak who is going to come out in a few weeks and help me formulate a plan. Perhaps the removal of any of my timber is a bad plan. We'll see. Thanks for the tips guys.
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bjohnson
Well-Known Member
Opening up the canopy is never a bad plan as sunlight to the ground creates growth which is food and cover. You want your property to provide something different that the deer want that the surrounding properties do not provide.
