cAN U CHANGE THEM

[Ski]

When does it cease to be hunting and start to be farming?

When you begin growing their rack size.

Lakoskys do it. Drurys do it. Still technically free range wild deer but there's no question they are bigger than deer typically grow in the wild.

Not sure if they still have it but Lakosky had a 24/7 live feed showing one of his trough feeders. The thing would hold about a pallet load of feed and he kept it full year round. Within a number of years he begins dropping 200 inchers and his wife killed a nearly 200" 8pt. How much does it cost? I'd guess all in probably in the six figures annually for many years. But he proved it can be done.

Not my thing. I'm not even interested in hunting shows. But that one had me intrigued enough to look into it a little. While not technically a deer farm where the deer are confined, it's as close as you can get. And he gets results somewhere below deer farm quality racks but obviously well above what good habitat alone produces.

 

[yellalinehunter]

When you begin growing their rack size.

Lakoskys do it. Drurys do it. Still technically free range wild deer but there's no question they are bigger than deer typically grow in the wild.

Not sure if they still have it but Lakosky had a 24/7 live feed showing one of his trough feeders. The thing would hold about a pallet load of feed and he kept it full year round. Within a number of years he begins dropping 200 inchers and his wife killed a nearly 200" 8pt. How much does it cost? I'd guess all in probably in the six figures annually for many years. But he proved it can be done.

Not my thing. I'm not even interested in hunting shows. But that one had me intrigued enough to look into it a little. While not technically a deer farm where the deer are confined, it's as close as you can get. And he gets results somewhere below deer farm quality racks but obviously well above what good habitat alone produces.

He also puts in multiple very large food plots, grows corn and soybeans strictly for the deer and does habitat improvement. That feeder is more for advertising than it's for hunting over. Yes the deer get the nutrients but that's not the sole source. He also doesn't shoot deer till they are 6-7 years old.

 

[Ski]

He also puts in multiple very large food plots, grows corn and soybeans strictly for the deer and does habitat improvement. That feeder is more for advertising than it's for hunting over. Yes the deer get the nutrients but that's not the sole source. He also doesn't shoot deer till they are 6-7 years old.

That's all true but also harkens back to my initial post. It takes an all above approach. One thing by itself doesn't do it. And missing any one thing will prevent it. The feed alone is not the only deciding factor, but it is a critical one. Without it they wouldn't be producing the deer they do. And while I 100% agree the live cam on the feeder is a marketing stunt, it's not the only feeder they're running and the deer are absolutely benefitting from all the supplemental feed.

Could they be getting those results from habitat and food plots alone? There are thousands of other farms that suggest no. It's hard to deny that a bigger factor isn't the supplemental feed.

 

[DoubleRidge]

In a wild free range herd I dont think its benifical enough to justify the cost.
Also...managing the habitat by opening the canopy and allowing sunlight to the forest floor will generate way more tonnage per acre than what most land managers would be willing to spend on feed in a bag. Even food plots should be supplemental to our native forage management plan.
But without a doubt the number one factor is age. Forget genetics, we've all learned that we cant manage genetics in a wild herd. Nutrition...again, manage the natural forage and then consider food plots to be a supplement...but age is key....and no, not all old bucks are big....but I'd be willing to bet there are many bucks, if they made it to 4½ or 5½, would meet many deer hunters goals...we can grow bucks 120" to 130" (and even much bigger when everything lines up)...but age is the common denominator.
I love managing the habitat and watching wildlife benifit and respond. I enjoy food plotting. Love planting trees. But the single biggest action that we have taken over the years is to let deer walk and reach maturity.
And in addition, we have worked with neighbors who have the same or similar goals.

 

[BSK]

....and no, not all old bucks are big....but I'd be willing to bet there are many bucks, if they made it to 4½ or 5½, would meet many deer hunters goals...we can grow bucks 120" to 130" (and even much bigger when everything lines up)...but age is the common denominator.

Agree. In my area, the average 4 1/2 grosses 120. That meets many deer hunters' desires. Not the trophy hunter, but most hunters. And as you mentioned, some mature bucks are large-antlered, some small-antlered. I've got a 4 1/2 on my place this year that won't gross 80. Yet we've also had mature bucks that went well into 160s.

 

[Urban_Hunter]

All the while you've got to keep the population at or below carry capacity, which means killing a lot of deer.

I always hear this and I can't wrap my head around it. Everywhere around me that consistently has big deer are areas of overpopulation. Hendersonville peninsulas, around the Nashville airport, Shelby bottoms… all of these areas have acknowledged overpopulation with extremely established browse lines… and they have monster bucks.

 

[BSK]

I always hear this and I can't wrap my head around it. Everywhere around me that consistently has big deer are areas of overpopulation. Hendersonville peninsulas, around the Nashville airport, Shelby bottoms… all of these areas have acknowledged overpopulation with extremely established browse lines… and they have monster bucks.

But is simply that those areas have far more MATURE bucks because they're protected?

 

[Ski]

I always hear this and I can't wrap my head around it. Everywhere around me that consistently has big deer are areas of overpopulation. Hendersonville peninsulas, around the Nashville airport, Shelby bottoms… all of these areas have acknowledged overpopulation with extremely established browse lines… and they have monster bucks.

How much hunting pressure? How many deer are living to maturity vs deer that get heavier hunting pressure? Starving isn't how those deer get big. Imagine how many more big ones there would be if there was enough food that browse lines didn't exist.

 

[megalomaniac]

managing the habitat by opening the canopy and allowing sunlight to the forest floor will generate way more tonnage per acre than what most land managers would be willing to spend on feed in a bag. Even food plots should be supplemental to our native forage management plan.

Spot on!!!!

Way more can be achieved through habitat management than anything supplemental (out of a bag or planted)

 

[megalomaniac]

But without a doubt the number one factor is age. Forget genetics, we've all learned that we cant manage genetics in a wild herd. Nutrition...again, manage the natural forage and then consider food plots to be a supplement...but age is key....and no, not all old bucks are big....but I'd be willing to bet there are many bucks, if they made it to 4½ or 5½, would meet many deer hunters goals...we can grow bucks 120" to 130" (and even much bigger when everything lines up)...but age is the common denominator.

Sort of agree...

If you are going for 120 to 130in bucks, age is the most important leg of the 3 legged stool... (Age, genetics, nutrition)

Unless you are in an area with TERRIBLE soils. Nutrition (next to impossible to improve with terrible soils) becomes no 1... and you are screwed. Just hunt elsewhere.

BUT, if you are going for 150in bucks or better... its ALL about genetics. You can't control the percent of the population that has the genetic potential to be 150 or up... but that tiny percent of the population has to be protected until maturity to regularly produce 150in and up bucks. 90% of most bucks just dont have the genetics to ever break 150.

 

[BSK]

BUT, if you are going for 150in bucks or better... its ALL about genetics. You can't control the percent of the population that has the genetic potential to be 150 or up... but that tiny percent of the population has to be protected until maturity to regularly produce 150in and up bucks. 90% of most bucks just dont have the genetics to ever break 150.

Wise words.

If you are after 150+ bucks, a couple of rules to increase your odds.

1) Hunt in areas that have a history of producing such bucks. It takes decent soils and habitat to regularly grow 150-inch bucks.
2) You absolutely CANNOT shoot bucks before maturity. A few 3 1/2s will make 150, but not many. And the 3 1/2 150 could end up being a monster at maturity.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Sort of agree...

If you are going for 120 to 130in bucks, age is the most important leg of the 3 legged stool... (Age, genetics, nutrition)

Unless you are in an area with TERRIBLE soils. Nutrition (next to impossible to improve with terrible soils) becomes no 1... and you are screwed. Just hunt elsewhere.

BUT, if you are going for 150in bucks or better... its ALL about genetics. You can't control the percent of the population that has the genetic potential to be 150 or up... but that tiny percent of the population has to be protected until maturity to regularly produce 150in and up bucks. 90% of most bucks just dont have the genetics to ever break 150.

Just to clarify....the goal isnt necessarily 120 to 130" deer...just making the point that there is a realistic opportunity to have deer in this class by simply allowing them to mature and that most hunters would be pleased with a deer in this class.

And I totally agree it goes back to genetics and that the best up and comers must be protected until maturity to have a chance at producing 140 to 150"+ bucks....(which goes back to age)...but we cant control genetics.

Basically...manage habitat and allow bucks to reach maturity...and dont expect to produce big bucks from a bag alone.

 

[diamond hunter]

OK,so I cut timber this year and trapped yotes last year,helping the fawns and this year we seem to have seen many more deer than normal. Maybe simply investing in fertilizer and riding the logging roads and liming everything more would help them more than supplemental feed. Natural browse seems to be what they need. This year once it geets cold ill be getting the traps into the ground and killing more of the vermin. Next year I may take my boy to Canada and let him kill a 5k deer so that he wont kill one on our place.Ha!

 

[CrossVolle]

IMO best thing most of us can do is use tags on old bucks that aren't big while saving young bucks that are. Take a reasonable approach to habitat enhancement and reasonable approach to harvest management, and within a few years you'll see bigger bucks because you're creating an inviting environment and allowing bucks to live long enough to reach their potential. Easy concept but for whatever reason even that is more than most hunters are willing to do.

Everybody sees a big 3yr old 10pt and they shoot first chance they get, ignoring that in two more years that buck would be truly trophy size, not just big. Yes there's a very real possibility he'll get killed by someone else but that's just part of the game of trying to increase trophy potential. I lose probably 80% of bucks before they reach 5yrs old, but of that 20% survivors about half become true giants. About every other year I have a giant to hunt. I don't always get him but at least I have one to chase and dream about. And often enough I do kill him. Makes it all worthwhile.

Sounds like everything that does not happen on my ground. Case and point below. This old deer has ran everything off all season. The other deer i will give the benefit of the doubt and say hes 3 even thought i believe is 2 was killed early October. Deer likely never got to breed a single doe and pass those goods back into the pool.