do you remember

Good read.... I find it very interesting that TN had a 10yr ave of 4.0 poults per hen.... That seems extremely high and this fact alone could explain a lot especially if the current ave is less than 2...
 
Setterman":jsvz8des said:
Yes I remember and I don't know whether to be sad or angry. Maybe both.

Those were amazing years
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Yes they was amazing. If hunters here were in diapers or not turkey hunting in these days, you missed turkey hunting at its finest in TN. That article summed it for me. NOW, what happened? The question I've always had did the standards and management goals of our great turkey biologist of those wonderful years change when he retired? When is the last time TN had a broad survey of those early years of the set goal of 2.7 to maintain a stable population? Did facts go out the window and become ignored? Why has changes not been instituted after many years of poor broad surveys, poor recruitment not outlined by the goals set by our founding turkey biologist to maintain stability.
Also, it was noted then in that report that some areas would need to be stocked up due to numbers not being at their potential for the areas. BUT, 2 years later we go to 4 bird limit, 2 years after that is the 07 fall out! There is the facts my friends.
 
Personally, and with most of my turkey hunting being in Stewart County, I experienced a steady increase in the overall quality of the hunting until about 2004. Overall, I've seen a steady decline since. While I am not one of those who believes the sky is falling, I do believe TWRA's turkey management has been trending in the wrong direction now for about a decade. For those who like to count beans, just look at the harvest numbers for those "top" counties of the past, look at them now, and more importantly, LISTEN to the majority of those long-term turkey hunters who hunted then, and now, in those "top" counties of the past.

But unlike in 2002, 2003, 2004 era of turkey hunting, our turkey hunters now have many more gadgets and tools that make the actual killing of an available turkey much easier. And I'm not just talking about those items which some say have "dumbed down" the sport, but items which have enabled us to be more willing to hunt longer and harder, such as better clothing, better footwear, turkey loungers, but of course, longer-range turkey guns (with better sights), better ammo, the list goes on.

Regarding the fall turkey hunting (for which I'm personally opposed), from this linked article:

The fall of 2002 saw hunts available in 41 counties, but 12 more were added in 2003, bringing the total fall hunt counties to 53. Given the fact the fall harvest has been steadily rising by 400 to 500 birds per year . . . . .

These fall harvests are roughly half hen turkeys? And in the fall of 2014, several counties allowed the killing of 6 hens per hunter during their fall turkey season?

Yep, I know the majority of Tennessee's turkey hunters have zero interest in fall turkey hunting. Meanwhile, TWRA has been promoting it, and those who do participate have been slaughtering the hen turkeys, and also promoting more fall hunting. This is a classic case of TWRA catering to a very small minority while ignoring the preferences of the super-majority. Fall turkey hunting adversely effects Spring turkey hunting and reduces the turkey population. How many turkey hunters are really wanting that?
 
I can say I definitely experienced better turkey hunting when I was 10 years old than I do now 16 years later. My counties harvest is down nearly 30% since 2004 even with the gadgets making it easier. Sad.


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Fall hunting wouldn't bother me if people wouldn't shoot hens and 5 month old birds.

Just make it one gobbler, or make the four in spring count four your fall turkeys

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Wish we could four poults per hen again. Right now it is about .08-1.

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I remember those days well. One thing I found interesting in that article is what they noticed in 2003. After 10 years at 4.0 poults per hen survival they saw a decline to 2.1 and the lowest recruitment in 23 years. They say it takes 2.7 to keep the population stable, so that alone is under the percentage. On top of that they noticed a 10% increase in the number of hens with no poults. Despite this they choose to increase the limit to 4 birds and increase fall oppritunities at the very next commission meeting in 2004 for the 2005 season. Looks like they might have held off for a few years on those changes to see what the results of that were and see if the trend continued. I also realize that even after this and the limit increase we had record harvest years, but that doesn't really reflect what was truly going on IMO. I believe the decline had already started in some areas while many remained stable for a time. When you increase the limit from 3 to 4 you should see a increase in harvest numbers, which overall we did for a few years. It just took those few transition years of lower poult recruitment and a more liberal bag limit to show up. I just don't understand why the commission hasn't been a little quicker to realize this and make changes accordingly.
 
darn2ten":2dmkelop said:
I remember those days well. One thing I found interesting in that article is what they noticed in 2003. After 10 years at 4.0 poults per hen survival they saw a decline to 2.1 and the lowest recruitment in 23 years. They say it takes 2.7 to keep the population stable, so that alone is under the percentage. On top of that they noticed a 10% increase in the number of hens with no poults. Despite this they choose to increase the limit to 4 birds and increase fall oppritunities at the very next commission meeting in 2004 for the 2005 season. Looks like they might have held off for a few years on those changes to see what the results of that were and see if the trend continued. I also realize that even after this and the limit increase we had record harvest years, but that doesn't really reflect what was truly going on IMO. I believe the decline had already started in some areas while many remained stable for a time. When you increase the limit from 3 to 4 you should see a increase in harvest numbers, which overall we did for a few years. It just took those few transition years of lower poult recruitment and a more liberal bag limit to show up. I just don't understand why the commission hasn't been a little quicker to realize this and make changes accordingly.
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Money!!! 2005 was the first big license increase, especially to non residents. To keep them non residents coming and spending money, limits were raised on turkey at that time cause TN was a turkey hunters paradise, and non resident die hards flocked here for it, so come here and get your money worth. Biological data has been thrown to waste, they will never admit to a problem cause it hurts sales. They will not change cause it hurts sales, they will let every bird in this state die, as long as sales continue. Sorry, but that is just the truth.
 
darn2ten":32hey3uc said:
. . . . they saw a decline to 2.1 and the lowest recruitment in 23 years. They say it takes 2.7 to keep the population stable, so that alone is under the percentage. On top of that they noticed a 10% increase in the number of hens with no poults. Despite this they choose to increase the limit to 4 birds and increase fall oppritunities at the very next commission meeting in 2004 for the 2005 season. . . . . I just don't understand why the commission hasn't been a little quicker to realize this and make changes accordingly.
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Generally speaking, the TWRA (not the Commissioners) makes the recommendations. When presented with opposing reasoning (which can generally only come from outside the TWRA), the Commissioners may then "question" those TWRA recommendations, such as we just saw in the last Commission meeting regarding the deer regulations.

The Commissioners' role is mainly to provide some additional oversight to the TWRA. They commonly rubber-stamp whatever the TWRA recommends, but these Commissioners generally do consider opposing viewpoints, and sometimes instruct the TWRA to come up with some different recommendations. If I remember correctly, there were Commissioners back in 2004 who didn't believe the limit should be raised nor the fall season expanded, but they gave the TWRA turkey biologist the benefit of their doubts.
 
deerchaser007":1umwim3f said:
Money!!! 2005 was the first big license increase, especially to non residents. To keep them non residents coming and spending money, limits were raised on turkey at that time cause TN was a turkey hunters paradise, and non resident die hards flocked here for it, so come here and get your money worth. Biological data has been thrown to waste, they will never admit to a problem cause it hurts sales. They will not change cause it hurts sales, they will let every bird in this state die, as long as sales continue. Sorry, but that is just the truth.
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There is SOME truth to what you say, especially back in 2005.
To attract non-resident turkey hunters, imo, this is part of why our turkey season opens earlier than KY's, and closes later than KY's. Tennessee does attract a lot of KY turkey hunters. But if TWRA continues this trend of doing more harm than good to the turkey hunting, the non-resident sales will essentially stop.

By the way, the loss of non-resident license sales was one of the arguments not to lower the buck limit (from 11 bucks annually) back in 1998. Despite the opposition from TWRA, the Commission lowered the buck limit to 2, then raised it to 3 in 1999 in part to increase non-resident license sales. In 1997, we had a ton of non-resident hunters coming down from Pennsylvania and Kentucky. Pretty much stopped in 1998, and that may have had a more dramatic effect on improving the quality of public-land deer hunting (to TN residents) than anything else.

Money is (and should be) a part of the consideration, but I believe it's role is being over-stated regarding TWRA's turkey regs.
 
Wes Parrish":2bo2zt4c said:
darn2ten":2bo2zt4c said:
. . . . they saw a decline to 2.1 and the lowest recruitment in 23 years. They say it takes 2.7 to keep the population stable, so that alone is under the percentage. On top of that they noticed a 10% increase in the number of hens with no poults. Despite this they choose to increase the limit to 4 birds and increase fall oppritunities at the very next commission meeting in 2004 for the 2005 season. . . . . I just don't understand why the commission hasn't been a little quicker to realize this and make changes accordingly.
Click to expand...
Generally speaking, the TWRA (not the Commissioners) makes the recommendations. When presented with opposing reasoning (which can generally only come from outside the TWRA), the Commissioners may then "question" those TWRA recommendations, such as we just saw in the last Commission meeting regarding the deer regulations.

The Commissioners' role is mainly to provide some additional oversight to the TWRA. They commonly rubber-stamp whatever the TWRA recommends, but these Commissioners generally do consider opposing viewpoints, and sometimes instruct the TWRA to come up with some different recommendations. If I remember correctly, there were Commissioners back in 2004 who didn't believe the limit should be raised nor the fall season expanded, but they gave the TWRA turkey biologist the benefit of their doubts.
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Yes, you are correct. A oversight on my part.
 
Cowman71":1v9fkgtd said:
Moved here in 04 and have been hunting South Cherokee every year since. I've experienced excellent eastern wild turkey public land hunting every one of those years. Some years they've gobbled better than others, but I attribute that to them just being turkeys, not to them not being there. This year was no different, with gobbling being good right up until today. We have also had a decent flock on and around our 75 acre farm here in McMinn County every year. They are fortunate in that neither I nor my neighbors hunt them. They have good years and bad years, but there are always a few around. I don't need to hear 27 gobblers hammering every morning throughout the season to consider it good hunting. I'm satisfied with just knowing there are a couple here and there to hunt, whether they blow the woods down or not ;)
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Totally agree
 
2004 was right at the end of the 'good ole days'... we hit our peak, and has been downhill since then. 4 poults/ hen was almost the norm during the late 90's/ early 00's... since then, just abysmal hatches.

I've got a great idea? Why not increase spring gobbler limits and increase fall hen hunting while the poult recruitment is declining? Sounds like the perfect management strategy... fast forward 11 years... Looks like its working like a charm! Good job TWRA!
 

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