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For those who have sprayed and/or burned

BSK

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 11, 1999
Messages
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Location
Nashville, TN
Looking for advice and experiences others have had with somewhat large-scale aerial spraying and/or burning.

To set the stage: we have gone through several periods of cutting small amounts of hardwood timber on my place over the years. Each of the cuts were a patchwork of small cuts, usually 2-5 acres each spread around the property, and no total cut exceeded more than 25 total acres across the property. Trail-camera data shows that each time we've cut timber, the deer population surges, peaking about three years after the timber removal was concluded (and the magnitude of the population surge is closely tied the number of acres of hardwood cut). At three years of regrowth is the point when weed/brier growth (summer food sources) in the cut areas are at peak. All of these cuts have been left to regrow naturally, and they have all returned to hardwood timber. And once these patches of timber have enough sapling regrowth to block sunlight from the ground, the deer population has fallen back to where it started (no more summer forbs or blackberries), usually about 5-6 years after timber removal. In the winter of 2020, we had a very large-scale timber cut conducted. We had 110 acres (a little more than 1/5th of the property) cut down to 10" DBH, which removed a large percentage of the trees in each cut area (110-acres were scattered across 6 patches, with the largest being 25 acres). The deer population response has been astounding. Prior to this large cut, we would average around 35 unique bucks using the property during the fall months, with 16 being older age (target) bucks. In the four years since the cut, we are averaging 53 total bucks per year, with 24 being older-age target bucks.

Now the problem. We are year 4 since the timber removal. These cut areas are already filling with 10-foot-tall saplings which will soon block all sunlight from the ground, and this population surge we are very happy with is going to disappear over the next few years. Instead of cutting more timber to recreate the early-stage regrowth, I would like to return several of these timber cuts back to year zero or one of regrowth, recreating the habitat that was so beneficial. The question is, what is the most effective way to do this? On clients' properties, we've used aerial spraying alone, spraying followed by fire, and fire alone. In my opinion, spraying followed by fire is the most beneficial from a wildlife perspective. However, the way we cut timber makes that a bit of a problem, as we left the timber standing on all of the ridge-tops and bottoms of valleys and cut the timber off the steep hillside. I'm not sure how effective aerial spraying would be on steep hillsides. In addition, fire on steep hillsides can get more than a little dicey. In addition, cutting firebreaks around some of these steep hillsides would be a major equipment challenge. Loggers have rolled both bulldozers and skidders working on these hillsides. I would not be spraying/burning all of the cuts, just about 25 acres spread in three patches.

Anyone had experience with any of these methods in very difficult terrain? Results?
 
Would cutting breaks at the tops and bottoms bottoms an option, and then possibly in just the right places cutting a few going downhill where you could? I have never burned more than an acre at a time, but then I don't have a big chunk of land, and just have a 47 horse tractor and I am just me doing the work. I do spray first and let the vegetation brown up.
 
Backpack sprayer crew
All timber cuts are already solid walls of 8-12 foot saplings. I cannot force my way into them.

I have no problem with hiring a helicopter crew to spray this. It isn't that terribly expensive. I would use drones, but they generally require a treeless area. I still have plenty of <10" trees in these cuts (which I have no problem killing).
 
Would cutting breaks at the tops and bottoms bottoms an option, and then possibly in just the right places cutting a few going downhill where you could? I have never burned more than an acre at a time, but then I don't have a big chunk of land, and just have a 47 horse tractor and I am just me doing the work. I do spray first and let the vegetation brown up.
Even the top-of-hill and bottom-of-hill fire lanes would require major bulldozer work. I can't even get a bulldozer operator out there to make a few roads.
 
All timber cuts are already solid walls of 8-12 foot saplings. I cannot force my way into them.

I have no problem with hiring a helicopter crew to spray this. It isn't that terribly expensive. I would use drones, but they generally require a treeless area. I still have plenty of <10" trees in these cuts (which I have no problem killing).
You'd be surprised. I've had them spray similar and kill over 95% of the trees
 
You'd be surprised. I've had them spray similar and kill over 95% of the trees
Really? Amazing. If I may ask, what is the cost of hiring such a crew?

And also out of curiosity, what were they spraying? Just curious as for timing (whether it has to be a fall spray or could be a spring spray).
 
Forestry boom sprayer? It's basically a converted skidder.

1733865611026.webp
 
That's how we roll over this way. More targeted than aerial, less concern with drift to non-target species, and assuming you got the wood OUT with a skidder you know you can get one back in there.
Oh, they skidded the logs out, but being winter, they destroyed parts of the hills! This video does not involve the really steep hills, but shows the problems they had. Using the logs as push-poles:
 

Attachments

  • 20210202_125314.mp4
    76.2 MB
When it's hot, greened up, and dry a skidder sprayer can roll up the road like nothin esp. if it's grown up a little. It's flatter over here of course, but a good operator can get you taken care of no problem and leave your residual stand in good shape.
 
Man I'm shocked at how many bucks you have using the property. I don't have anywhere NEAR those numbers on several places I hunt. I might have 3, 3 year olds on 300 acres and maybe 2 on another 450 acre tract.
 
Man I'm shocked at how many bucks you have using the property. I don't have anywhere NEAR those numbers on several places I hunt. I might have 3, 3 year olds on 300 acres and maybe 2 on another 450 acre tract.
Just like in real estate, location, location, location. I'm in the middle of a couple square miles of ridge-and-hollow hardwoods surrounded on three sides by some of the biggest and most productive bottomlands in TN. Basically, an island of big woods surrounded by a sea of agriculture. My place is the transition back and forth between all those bottoms. In addition, once the crops are harvested, that's a HUGE area with no cover or major food sources. In a good acorn year, we hold ALL of the deer that were living in the bottoms all summer.

In 2023, with that massive acorn crop and all of the cut-overs on my place to hide in, we picked up 70 unique bucks that used our place at some point during deer season. Some of my clients, with quadruple the acreage, don't pick up that many bucks.
 
Looking for advice and experiences others have had with somewhat large-scale aerial spraying and/or burning.

To set the stage: we have gone through several periods of cutting small amounts of hardwood timber on my place over the years. Each of the cuts were a patchwork of small cuts, usually 2-5 acres each spread around the property, and no total cut exceeded more than 25 total acres across the property. Trail-camera data shows that each time we've cut timber, the deer population surges, peaking about three years after the timber removal was concluded (and the magnitude of the population surge is closely tied the number of acres of hardwood cut). At three years of regrowth is the point when weed/brier growth (summer food sources) in the cut areas are at peak. All of these cuts have been left to regrow naturally, and they have all returned to hardwood timber. And once these patches of timber have enough sapling regrowth to block sunlight from the ground, the deer population has fallen back to where it started (no more summer forbs or blackberries), usually about 5-6 years after timber removal. In the winter of 2020, we had a very large-scale timber cut conducted. We had 110 acres (a little more than 1/5th of the property) cut down to 10" DBH, which removed a large percentage of the trees in each cut area (110-acres were scattered across 6 patches, with the largest being 25 acres). The deer population response has been astounding. Prior to this large cut, we would average around 35 unique bucks using the property during the fall months, with 16 being older age (target) bucks. In the four years since the cut, we are averaging 53 total bucks per year, with 24 being older-age target bucks.

Now the problem. We are year 4 since the timber removal. These cut areas are already filling with 10-foot-tall saplings which will soon block all sunlight from the ground, and this population surge we are very happy with is going to disappear over the next few years. Instead of cutting more timber to recreate the early-stage regrowth, I would like to return several of these timber cuts back to year zero or one of regrowth, recreating the habitat that was so beneficial. The question is, what is the most effective way to do this? On clients' properties, we've used aerial spraying alone, spraying followed by fire, and fire alone. In my opinion, spraying followed by fire is the most beneficial from a wildlife perspective. However, the way we cut timber makes that a bit of a problem, as we left the timber standing on all of the ridge-tops and bottoms of valleys and cut the timber off the steep hillside. I'm not sure how effective aerial spraying would be on steep hillsides. In addition, fire on steep hillsides can get more than a little dicey. In addition, cutting firebreaks around some of these steep hillsides would be a major equipment challenge. Loggers have rolled both bulldozers and skidders working on these hillsides. I would not be spraying/burning all of the cuts, just about 25 acres spread in three patches.

Anyone had experience with any of these methods in very difficult terrain? Results?
BSK...I'm glad you started this conversation because I'm in the same or similar boat. Our select timber cut was in 2019 and in some areas I'm happy with the response, broom sedge, blackberry briar, weeds, etc...but in other larger sections its exactly as you described...8' to 10' tall saplings that in areas you cant walk through. Its a bit overwhelming honestly.

As for fire, I dont have as steep of terrain as you do...but I have no large scale burning experience....so I've talked to the State Forestry Dept last year and at that time it was $450 minimum for 10 acres...after that $45 per acre...they build firebreaks and manage the burn...so Im considering having them come out and see which areas will be suitable to burn and which areas may not.
I really would like to develop 3 or 4 large burn units so we can rotate annually between units and always have early successional growth going.
But in the same breath I'm very interested in the sprayer rig Boll Weevil posted about.
 
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That's how we roll over this way. More targeted than aerial, less concern with drift to non-target species, and assuming you got the wood OUT with a skidder you know you can get one back in there.
Wow....very interesting rig. Do you know if they charge by the acre? Or do they just bid a job? And if by the acre...whats an average cost?Just curious if this may be a realistic option for my situation? And do you know if they work in Middle TN? Appreciate any information.
 
No fire unless you have fire breaks. When you get the breaks in start a backing fire at the top of the ridge and wait a bit before you go to the bottom to start the fire there, that way you don't have as much fuel near the top of the ridge.
 
If the areas are burned without first spraying, will a creeping fire kill 10-12 saplings? What would the difference in sapling kill be if the fire is pre-green-up versus post-green-up? Wouldn't a post-green-up fire be very bad for turkey nests/young as well as newborn fawns?
 
If the areas are burned without first spraying, will a creeping fire kill 10-12 saplings? What would the difference in sapling kill be if the fire is pre-green-up versus post-green-up? Wouldn't a post-green-up fire be very bad for turkey nests/young as well as newborn fawns?
It may take a couple of burns to kill everything, fire is cheap, herbicide not so much. Burn in March or wait until the end of June, then you miss the nesting season.
 
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