For those who have sprayed and/or burned

[JCDEERMAN]

Out firebreaks consist 80% of backpack blowers alone. The other 20% are roads that are blown off with those blowers. Most firebreaks don't need to be but 6' wide. I wouldn't hesitate starting a fire at the top and letting it slowly burn down. Once you get a good 30 yards black line, you can either let it keep burning down the hill, or fire it up at the bottom once the sides have a good perimeter and the top is burned. We have 7 to do this spring (hopefully) consisting of about 40 acres. One of them seems to be like your hills - straight up and down….the whole head of a hollow. Needed to be done about 2 years ago, but we're going to get a good black line and light it up - hoping to kill ALOT of the underbrush and saplings.

Most places, you can get just 20 yards are so in the hardwoods and make your fire line there and back into the thick stuff where it was logged. That gives you a good buffer of fuel burned. Now that deer season is winding down, I'm pumped on the planning of these burns. And many times, hack-n-squirt is essential as a follow up after a burn.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

I'd like to explore the aerial spraying. Just haven't yet, but from what I've heard, it's a valuable option

 

[MickThompson]

If the areas are burned without first spraying, will a creeping fire kill 10-12 saplings? What would the difference in sapling kill be if the fire is pre-green-up versus post-green-up? Wouldn't a post-green-up fire be very bad for turkey nests/young as well as newborn fawns?

Trees still have a lot of reserves in the ground at green up. You may knock them back a little but they'll bounce right back. If you wait til after greenup there's too much shade and humidity and no wind to stir it. Recipe for frustration.

You'll need several burns to see a shift and at least 2 leaf drops between burns to carry a fire.

 

[BSK]

Thanks much Mick. Valuable information.

 

[BSK]

I'd like to explore the aerial spraying. Just haven't yet, but from what I've heard, it's a valuable option

One of my clients along the lake uses aerial spraying. In the "hill country," they use helicopter spraying. In their more open bottomlands, they do it by drone (and it's a BIG drone! Comes in on a trailer with four 6-foot blades). Cost for either helicopter or drone spraying is about the same, around $115/acre.

 

[Urban_Hunter]

Definitely fire. Absolutely. And gas. And video cameras.

 

[backyardtndeer]

Oh, they skidded the logs out, but being winter, they destroyed parts of the hills! This video does not involve the really steep hills, but shows the problems they had. Using the logs as push-poles:

That's not as steep as some of the hills here. A good dozer operator wouldn't have any trouble with that.

 

[BSK]

That's not as steep as some of the hills here. A good dozer operator wouldn't have any trouble with that.

That's probably one of the flatter places we logged. Some are so steep you have to crawl up the hills on your hand and knees.

That and, find me a bulldozer operator! NO ONE wants to use their equipment building roads through rough terrain. They're getting plenty of work leveling home sites.

 

[Deck78]

We are in this discussion right now after taking 300 acres of pines from our tract earlier this year. Per Mick's comment, we do not have enough fuel on the ground for immediate burning protocols, so we are having to evaluate what we do for the first 1-3 years post logging.

There were so many white oaks tucked inside our pine forests that remained standing, and they have piles of slash laid up on them, so we have to figure out how to remove that debris before any burning commences so we do not lose those trees.

We are likely going to have to do some aerial or boom spraying of chems to help keep regrowth at bay while we begin to implement our management plans, but our goal is to get proficient at prescribed fire and get off the chem dependency (we don't have endless funds and a lot of acres to manage). We have a strong road network to begin with and while we do have some work on our hands to finish out roads and firebreaks, I am fortunate to own a construction company and have a decent amount of heavy equipment to assist.

We have some areas that the regrowth from logging of the past is super thick awful. They dont provide any benefit to our wildlife it seems, and we can't access the areas at all. I hope you find a way to get rid of those spots on your place!

 

[MickThompson]

We are in this discussion right now after taking 300 acres of pines from our tract earlier this year. Per Mick's comment, we do not have enough fuel on the ground for immediate burning protocols, so we are having to evaluate what we do for the first 1-3 years post logging.

There were so many white oaks tucked inside our pine forests that remained standing, and they have piles of slash laid up on them, so we have to figure out how to remove that debris before any burning commences so we do not lose those trees.

We are likely going to have to do some aerial or boom spraying of chems to help keep regrowth at bay while we begin to implement our management plans, but our goal is to get proficient at prescribed fire and get off the chem dependency (we don't have endless funds and a lot of acres to manage). We have a strong road network to begin with and while we do have some work on our hands to finish out roads and firebreaks, I am fortunate to own a construction company and have a decent amount of heavy equipment to assist.

We have some areas that the regrowth from logging of the past is super thick awful. They dont provide any benefit to our wildlife it seems, and we can't access the areas at all. I hope you find a way to get rid of those spots on your place!

I'd give it a year minimum before you do anything. Regrowth may be problematic trees but it's also making fuel for your next burn. That will give problem trees a chance to sprout and let you evaluate the seedbank.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Wow....very interesting rig. Do you know if they charge by the acre? Or do they just bid a job? And if by the acre...whats an average cost?Just curious if this may be a realistic option for my situation? And do you know if they work in Middle TN? Appreciate any information.

I don't have a current dollar estimate but forestry spraying will be by the acre (time + fuel + chemical) keeping in mind flatter ground likely takes less time than hilly. I'd think a crew would take a middle TN job if it's big enough and especially if there's other site prep or mid-rotation spraying jobs close by.

 

[BSK]

We are in this discussion right now after taking 300 acres of pines from our tract earlier this year. Per Mick's comment, we do not have enough fuel on the ground for immediate burning protocols, so we are having to evaluate what we do for the first 1-3 years post logging.

There were so many white oaks tucked inside our pine forests that remained standing, and they have piles of slash laid up on them, so we have to figure out how to remove that debris before any burning commences so we do not lose those trees.

We are likely going to have to do some aerial or boom spraying of chems to help keep regrowth at bay while we begin to implement our management plans, but our goal is to get proficient at prescribed fire and get off the chem dependency (we don't have endless funds and a lot of acres to manage). We have a strong road network to begin with and while we do have some work on our hands to finish out roads and firebreaks, I am fortunate to own a construction company and have a decent amount of heavy equipment to assist.

We have some areas that the regrowth from logging of the past is super thick awful. They dont provide any benefit to our wildlife it seems, and we can't access the areas at all. I hope you find a way to get rid of those spots on your place!

I have no doubt - considering the difficulty of the site terrain - that we will initially use aerial spraying. After that, who knows. Would love to use fire if we can get the areas set up for that.

 

[Boll Weevil]

MS State video on wildlife implications of spray and/or burn.

 

[BSK]

MS State video on wildlife implications of spray and/or burn.

Thanks! Although that video is specific to pine plantations, some of the info is applicable to any habitat.

 

[BSK]

Although I've posted this before, this is the data I was referring to when I said we get a big population response each time we cut timber and produce early-stage regrowth. Notice the 3 surges in population from the 3 timber harvests. The first surge was a 5.1% of the property cut. The second was a 3.5% of the property cut. The last massive surge was a 22.5% of the property cut. But also notice how quickly these population surges fall off after timber removal. THAT is what I'm trying to prevent this time.

 

[Boll Weevil]

If the areas are burned without first spraying, will a creeping fire kill 10-12 saplings? What would the difference in sapling kill be if the fire is pre-green-up versus post-green-up?

2 pics same area (notice the scar on the base of the pine on the left side of the photo for reference). Left pic is day of burn in April while right pic is after full greenup in mid-July. All those hardwood stems you see kind of in the middle of the pics had broken bud when we burned; they're dead. I'll get a pic in the spring that will be 1 full year removed from the burn to see if any come back to life but on most of'em, the fire was hot enough to split the bark at/near the base. On others the flames were 5, 6, 7ft tall so heat got well into the canopy of those; they got torched.

In this particular spot, my guess is 80% or more got torched dead...add in the summer drought stress we had and even with whatever root reserves/energy they may have had I can snap'em in half like a toothpick. They're not coming back in the spring.

 

[Deck78]

I'd give it a year minimum before you do anything. Regrowth may be problematic trees but it's also making fuel for your next burn. That will give problem trees a chance to sprout and let you evaluate the seedbank.

I appreciate you giving that advice! We are going to work infrastructure in 2025 and see how regrowth occurs. It will be fun to see what seedbank we have. Its been a dark, pine forest since 1999.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Last pic. Different area with far more gradient and the understory kill wasn't nearly as terminal. While this area was lit at the bottom and ran uphill, wind direction rendered it a backing fire. I'd put this kill at more like 30-40% because it was shaded, backing, and just didn't get blistering hot.

You coulda roasted a wienie here...those other spots you couldn't get nowhere NEAR that close it was so hot.

 

[megalomaniac]

Im.struggling with the same thing... Last 79acs I bought was heavily logged 4y before I bought it. It was overtaken by privet at time of purchase. In the 5 years I've owned it, I've recovered 10 ac of food plots and interior roads with a mulching head, but the remainder is an impenetrable mess... it will eventually be a subdivision, and it's too close to surrounding houses to feel comfortable burning it. I'm strongly considering having the privet sprayed by drone or helicopter on jan/ Feb when the hardwoods are dormant. If I knew i would still own the property in 30 years, I would definitely do that now.

 

[BSK]

Im.struggling with the same thing... Last 79acs I bought was heavily logged 4y before I bought it. It was overtaken by privet at time of purchase. In the 5 years I've owned it, I've recovered 10 ac of food plots and interior roads with a mulching head, but the remainder is an impenetrable mess... it will eventually be a subdivision, and it's too close to surrounding houses to feel comfortable burning it. I'm strongly considering having the privet sprayed by drone or helicopter on jan/ Feb when the hardwoods are dormant. If I knew i would still own the property in 30 years, I would definitely do that now.

Are you thinking of spraying in Jan/Feb because the privet is evergreen and the hardwoods are not? I'm wondering if spraying hardwood saplings in winter would do anything. I'm assuming I would need to wait until green-up for killing hardwood saplings?