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poorhunter

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Need some help "defending " tss with a friend of mine. He's saying that the only advantage to tss is it's ability to put more pellets on target, not that tss carries more energy down range. He said that a #9tss has 3.9 foot pounds of energy and a #4 pellet has 10.2 ftlbs...or 2.6 times the energy as the #9 tss. This is at 1200fps.

Your understand is incorrect. At the same For a one ounce load you need 137 #4 leads and 359 #9 TTS. Ironically that's about 2.6 fold different. Someone that knew what they were doing selected #9 TTS is emulate #4 lead. The public just wasn't smart enough to understand why.

impact velocity of 1200 fps a single #9 TSS has 3.9 foot pounds of energy and a #4 lead has 10.2 foot pounds. They both have the same sectional density so they will penetrate the same but the #4 lead has 2.6 times more energy than the TTS. Granted there are more TTS pellets so if you put more than 2.6 times of them on target then yes you get more energy on target.

For a one ounce load you need 137 #4 leads and 359 #9 TTS. Ironically that's about 2.6 fold different. Someone that knew what they were doing selected #9 TTS is emulate #4 lead. The public just wasn't smart enough to understand why.
 
He's not convinced.

That hawglips guy is on a half dozen forums discussing TSS. Seems to have as much experience with it as anyone. Can't say I'm a big fan of his penetration test. He has varying gauges of metal and velocities on only a portion of the tested loads. Seems like a guy in his backyard trying to reproved, in an uncontrolled environment what's already been scientifically proved. Assuming no projectile deformation on impact projectiles with the same shape, sectional density and velocity will penetrate identically.

I hate to seem jaded but I'm still waiting for something besides pattern density to support the TSS.

Objects with less SD or velocity will penetrate less and objects with more SD or velocity will penetrate more. Assuming they don't fragment or deform, which results in different SD
I'm better read on ballistics than most and I have more center fire reloading experience than most. Real world testing of most ballistic aspects I have not done. There are a number of reputable government and independent labs that have already proven them. Why would I waste my time in the back yard with rusty barn tin and wet newspapers trying to re-validate their findings. For the first 2 years I was in TX I went to the range every weekend to test handloads and then spent the week analyzing the results and reformulating the recipe. Kinda fun but I ran most things rifle into the ground a few years ago. This has been a fun revisit.

These are some of his thoughts. I don't know or understand ballistic much, but I can't help but think that tss is better than lead.
 
I've shot it for 8 years now I think. I think it was the year after Hal introduced it. If your buddy cannot understand simple physics then there's no point in trying. It's all about density. When all this started there was a guy on another forum named labiologist that, if I'm not mistaken, was the one who used the math to determine 9s penetrated the same as lead 4s. Of course there's been all kinds of metal and tin tests as well as ballistic programs and of course birds killed at ranges that's not even feasible with lead

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Tell him after consulting with us that you were mistaken, TSS is not about chit and he should continue shooting lead, and maybe even regress back to steel shot. The less competition I/we have purchasing TSS, the more readily available, and cheaper it will be. :tu:

In all seriousness, the basic premise is the same as lead versus steel (lead being more dense), and any other comparison of density and penetration. Generally speaking, you need two things to adequately kill turkeys at a given range; pattern density, and penetration of the pellet (somewhat linked to energy, but that does not tell the whole story). With lead, you typically had both adequate pattern density and adequate penetration at 30 yards and under, but anything further and you had more of one, and less of the other, or vice versa, depending on the shot size of the lead pellet you were pushing downrange. If you shot #6s, you had the pattern density (holes on paper), for a considerable distance, but you lost adequate penetration long before you ran out of pattern density. #4 lead was just the opposite, you had adequate energy at further distances, but you ran of adequate pattern density long before you could see the benefit of the excess energy carried in each pellet. Make sense?

Fast forward to TSS, where you can shoot smaller shot sizes due to the pellets being EXTREMELY dense (18 grams per cubic centimeter or 18g/cc versus 11g/cc for lead, basically 50% more dense), perfectly polished to reduce drag and sustain muzzle velocities, non deforming, with extreme penetrating abilities, as well as exceeding all expectations as far as pattern density go (TSS #9s look GREAT on paper, and even better when they blow through a turkey's noggin). Basically, the small dense shot of TSS dominates in the two categories I originally mentioned; pattern density and penetration of each individual pellet, at any and all ranges. Also, due to the fact that you have limited area in a hull for your pellets, the small TSS pellets really shine in sub gauges (20, 28 and .410). For reference, you can pack 1 1/2 ounces of TSS #9s (543 pellets) in a 20 gauge hull and have more than adequate pattern density and penetration at the distances we should be shooting turkeys at.

That is it in a nutshell, but I will have more time tomorrow to expound if you need more info to work with. Good luck with your case, I hope this helps. :)
 
First point I want to make is lead 4s are no where near 10 ft lbs at 1200 fps, i have no idea where that misinformation came from but that correction should change your whole outlook as that seems to be what you were stuck on. they are around 3.91 about the exact same as tss 9s.

But we are turkey hunting, not deer hunting so kinetic energy can be thrown out the window. We are not trying to deflate lungs or bust livers. We are after bone crushing, spine breaking penetration.

One thing has has going for it that you already mentioned , is pattern density. The more pellets you can get to crush that spine and skull the better you are. It also doesn't lose velocity like lead because of the density of the material itself, it will be well beyond lead 4s at 40 yards because lead slows down faster.

The small shot hard shot will zip right throuth meat and bone, without deforming with little resistance, where lead has deformed before it's even 6" down the barrel of the shotgun, and reforms more on contact of meat and bone which slows it way down.

I've seen tss 8.5s go through the breast and fall out of the feathers on the opposite side.
 
All I can say is the ones I have were way deader than with any lead shell lol. No just kidding but dumb logic to me is the turkeys I shoot now just collapse. No flopping or moving of any kind. That's my proof.
 
Here's his response when I asked him if he was sure about his calculations on energy:

I am certain about the energy at that velocity. TSS density is 18 grams/cm3. Lead is 11 gr/cm3. A #9 TTS weighs 1.22 grains because it's only .000268 in3 in volume. #4 lead pellet is 3.2 grains because it's .00115 in3 in volume.
 
Hey man if he doesn't want to try TSS stop trying to convince him. If he thinks Hal (Hawglips) is a fly by nighter then he's wrong on that too.....Gobblernation is where he needs to go ask questions or I can give him Hal's email address.
 
poorhunter":1liezd8e said:
Here's his response when I asked him if he was sure about his calculations on energy:

I am certain about the energy at that velocity. TSS density is 18 grams/cm3. Lead is 11 gr/cm3. A #9 TTS weighs 1.22 grains because it's only .000268 in3 in volume. #4 lead pellet is 3.2 grains because it's .00115 in3 in volume.
Click to expand...


There's about 10000 ballistics tables that prove him wrong. I do know that a #4 Lead launched at 1100 fps will penetrate 2.1" at 40 yards. A #9 tss launched at the same speed will penetrate 2.1" at 40 yards into ballistics gel
 
One thing your calculating friend is overlooking is this:

The penetration difference between a razor blade vs. a butter knife.
Of course, that butter knife is a much heavier object,
but given the same velocity,
I'm betting on the razor blade being more likely to cut one's arm to the bone.

A #4 lead pellet is much like a dull butter knife;
A #9 TSS pellet is much like a razor blade, but one that is so hard, it doesn't bend,
and doesn't loose its edge while cutting bone.

Another valid analogy would be the penetration difference between a dull 100-gr broadhead
vs. a razor-sharp 100-gr broadhead.
 
It will also hold it's velocity further down range. Less surface area

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Tell him to forget about muzzle velocity, forget about energy, and focus solely on penetration. At the end of the day, you want pattern density (more pellets the better) and the most penetration (denser, smaller, perfectly polished spherical pellets, with the least surface area, friction and drag in the air column) you can get at the distances you are shooting. This article may help him understand the principle somewhat.

http://www.randywakeman.com/TalkingTurk ... ration.htm
 
Think about it this way... what penetrates more.. a 2.5" rage broadhead vs a little 1.25" broadhead when shot from the same bow?

Exactly why I shoot tiny little 1 1/4" broadheads at elk... always get a passthru... elk dies.
 

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