Why not older than 3.5?

[rtp]

Ok, seeing a thread posted about how many 3.5 yr old bucks made it through the season got me to thinking about a question I posed a few months ago. Im from Texas and I have been visiting this site for a while now. I asked this question a while back and dont think I got much in the way of positive feed back. Pretty much just got slammed for being a deer farmer because I let my bucks put on some age and I do provide supplemental feed the 9 months of the year outside of deer hunting season. It seems in Tenn. that a 3.5 yr old buck is considered mature. Is that because there is so much hunting pressure that bucks seldom make it to that age. Or are there other factors? I think in Texas the general consensus would be that a mature buck is 5.5 yrs old. Some would say older and others maybe 4.5 yrs old but the avg would be 5.5. Not trying to say one is better than the other just have noticed the difference in the two regions and was curious to what the reason may be. BTW, I dont have a HF place nor do I like them. But to each his own is how I see that debate.

 

[TheLBLman]

It seems in Tenn. that a 3.5 yr old buck is considered mature. Is that because there is so much hunting pressure that bucks seldom make it to that age. Or are there other factors?

I'm not sure that hunting pressure is the biggest factor, because so many bucks do in fact survive to 2 1/2, at which age most are then killed. Obviously, lots of "legal" small-antlered 1 1/2-yr-old bucks are being voluntarily passed by a growing number of hunters, so "hunting pressue" may not be as big a factor as "hunter mindset" regarding what they consider a "shooter" buck.

In your part of Texas, it may be that more hunters have a "hunter mindset" that a "shooter" needs to be a mature buck. Here, most hunters consider an above average-antlered 2 1/2 a shooter.

I'd speculate that in your part of Texas, a significant percentage of hunters wouldn't think of killing a buck that was younger than 4 1/2, no matter what the size of its antlers. In most of Tennessee, the focus is more on antlers than age. This commonly means that the young bucks with the best antler genetics are killed at 2 1/2 here; whereas in your area, they may be the ones most likely to survive to maturity.

Whereas in Texas the term "cull" buck usually implies a 3 1/2 or 4 1/2-yr-old with SMALLER than average antlers for his age, here it usually means something totally different: Just a term to "justify" shooting ANY buck that doesn't meet some previously stated "standard" a particular hunter has announced to his friends.

I'm with you on the maturity thing: It begins at 4 1/2.

 

[BoonerBucks]

My neighbor is a processor and he said that 95% of the deer he gets is young bucks below 6pts

 

[Columbia Scott]

I can hunt an entire season and never see a deer older than 2 1/2 years old. Tennessee is just that way. It's getting better, but slowly.

 

[megalomaniac]

Mature is defintely not until they are 4.5

But in TN, our best data indicates that only 4.5% of our herd is mature (4.5 and older)

In other words, there just aren't many bucks living to maturity.

In another thread, I was curious how many 3.5 yr olds made it through the season... because they'll be the bucks I'll be going after next year.

On a statewide level however, you would be hard pressed to find another state that kills more 2.5 and 3.5 yr olds than TN (as a percent of the harvest). Is that a good or a bad thing??? All depends on what you are after

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

But in TN, our best data indicates that only 4.5% of our herd is mature (4.5 and older)

Are you saying that 4.5% of the standing herd is 4.5+ or that only 4.5% of the total bucks killed are 4.5+?

 

[Tree Tramp]

Mature deer are as rare as hens teeth around here. Thats what i like to hunt, so its slow going for me anyways, ive pretty much thrown in the towel.

 

[BSK]

Ok, seeing a thread posted about how many 3.5 yr old bucks made it through the season got me to thinking about a question I posed a few months ago. Im from Texas and I have been visiting this site for a while now. I asked this question a while back and dont think I got much in the way of positive feed back. Pretty much just got slammed for being a deer farmer because I let my bucks put on some age and I do provide supplemental feed the 9 months of the year outside of deer hunting season. It seems in Tenn. that a 3.5 yr old buck is considered mature. Is that because there is so much hunting pressure that bucks seldom make it to that age. Or are there other factors? I think in Texas the general consensus would be that a mature buck is 5.5 yrs old. Some would say older and others maybe 4.5 yrs old but the avg would be 5.5. Not trying to say one is better than the other just have noticed the difference in the two regions and was curious to what the reason may be. BTW, I dont have a HF place nor do I like them. But to each his own is how I see that debate.

A HUGE difference exists in hunting pressure and hunter density between TN and TX. In parts of TN, it's not uncommon for hunter densities to run higher than 1 hunter per 20 acres. That's 32 hunters per square mile. How many hunters do you have on 640 acres in TX?

Hunters may consider a 3 1/2 year-old buck "mature," but biologically, a mature deer is a deer 4 1/2 years old or older no matter where you are talking about. Hunters in TN and much of the Southeast target 3 1/2+ year-old bucks because that age-class is exists in harvestable numbers considering hunter density. In essence, killing a 3 1/2+ year-old buck is far more realistic than a 4 1/2+ year-old buck.

 

[BSK]

But in TN, our best data indicates that only 4.5% of our herd is mature (4.5 and older)

What data is that?

 

[megalomaniac]

But in TN, our best data indicates that only 4.5% of our herd is mature (4.5 and older)

What data is that?

But in TN, our best data indicates that only 4.5% of our herd is mature (4.5 and older)

Are you saying that 4.5% of the standing herd is 4.5+ or that only 4.5% of the total bucks killed are 4.5+?

The only concrete data we can possibly use is that from the age strata from check stations. It's not perfect, but it's the best estimate we've got.

In reality, however, the actual percentage of mature bucks in the standing herd is probably much lower. Lots of people pass up young (1.5 and 2.5 y/o's), while very few people pass up 3.5 y/o's and virtually noone passes up 4.5 y/o's. That skews the harvest numbers toward the older age classes, and in my opinion, it occurs to such significance that it overrides the difficulty in killing older bucks.

It's also fairly consistent with what I've observed on trail cams... about 1 out of 20 bucks will be mature, and that's on a well managed property.

 

[rtp]

Ok those are some great answers. Now I get it.

BSK, a "normal" lease in Texas has about one hunter to 100 acres. Of course it can get more dense than that but that is typical.

How do yall hunt without bumping into each other with hunter densities like that? Is it mostly hunting from a stand?

For a long time parts of Texas had the issue of, if I dont shoot that 2.5 yr old 8 point then my neighbor will. The state started Antler Restrictions in a six county area a number of years ago. It was illegal to take a buck with less than a 13" inside spread unless it had at least one unbranched antler in those counties. It was quite successful in helping the age structure in this area and it has since been inmplemented in about 1/2 (i think) the counties in Texas. There are those that dont like it but the majority have been in favor. Places that never had mature bucks before certainly do now. The system has flaws for sure but it has help improve the age structure where hunting pressure was high and nobody would let a young buck walk.
My county is not under these restrictions so I have no personal experience with them.

 

[WRbowhunter]

may be a stupid question but what role does baiting have in drawing out the older bucks in TX so they are more visable.

 

[BSK]

But in TN, our best data indicates that only 4.5% of our herd is mature (4.5 and older)

What data is that?

But in TN, our best data indicates that only 4.5% of our herd is mature (4.5 and older)

Are you saying that 4.5% of the standing herd is 4.5+ or that only 4.5% of the total bucks killed are 4.5+?

The only concrete data we can possibly use is that from the age strata from check stations. It's not perfect, but it's the best estimate we've got.

What shows up in the harvest WILL NOT represent what's in the herd, especially considering the ability of older deer to more successfully avoid human hunters. Now harvest data is interesting data for sure, but more from a "hunter success and choice" standpoint, not a "what's in the population" standpoint.

The only way we could find out "what's in the population" age-wise is through some large-scale photo-inventory data, and that's just too expensive to conduct.

However, I do remember that MO was attempting something like this by encouraging hunters to send in their trail-camera pictures. I don't know if anything ever came of that, but it was an interesting idea.

 

[BSK]

Ok those are some great answers. Now I get it.

BSK, a "normal" lease in Texas has about one hunter to 100 acres. Of course it can get more dense than that but that is typical.

How do yall hunt without bumping into each other with hunter densities like that? Is it mostly hunting from a stand?

Parts of TN are heavy in leases with similar hunter densities to what you mention (1 hunter per 100 acres), but still, lots of TN has excessively high hunter densities. And hunters don't avoid "bumping each other." Hunter competition for the best stand locations is often very high.

But these vast differences in hunter density is why there is so much disparity in the quality of the hunting across TN. In the highest deer density areas--which also happen to be the areas with the most "managed" large-acreage leases--buck age structure can be very good, with 8-12% of the buck population being mature. However, parts of TN have low deer densities and very high hunter densities, and it is in these locations where the hunting experience can be poor and hunters complain about very poor buck age structures (and they could be right).

 

[BSK]

For a long time parts of Texas had the issue of, if I dont shoot that 2.5 yr old 8 point then my neighbor will. The state started Antler Restrictions in a six county area a number of years ago. It was illegal to take a buck with less than a 13" inside spread unless it had at least one unbranched antler in those counties. It was quite successful in helping the age structure in this area and it has since been inmplemented in about 1/2 (i think) the counties in Texas. There are those that dont like it but the majority have been in favor. Places that never had mature bucks before certainly do now. The system has flaws for sure but it has help improve the age structure where hunting pressure was high and nobody would let a young buck walk.
My county is not under these restrictions so I have no personal experience with them.

The question of Antler Restrictions is a tough call. In many situations, they do help protect many young bucks from harvest. However, they have also been documented causing biological problems (antler high-grading). From a purely biological standpoint, the major problem I have with them is the inability to produce biologically sound antler size limits that won't produce antler high-grading. In addition, in TN, where deer densities are good and hunter density is not excessive, antler restrictions haven't been needed to produce an adequate buck age structure. That has been produced simply through voluntary hunter restraint. When possible, I will always choose voluntary measures over manditory measures.

 

[RiverBuck10]

I have read every post on here and they all are true and good points. I feel that most (not all) TN hunters shoot anything that walks! I hear it all the time, "if it's brown, it's down". Which they pay for the right to hunt just as I do, so if they want to shoot a spike buck then go for it!! Me on the other hand would love to have TN put a restriction put on our bucks!! I let 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 year old deer walk all the time!! I let 2 spikes and a pretty nice 6 walk last year!!

TN is getting a lot better on the buck size I think. If you look at the 2010 kill thread there were some really nice deer killed in TN this year and that gets me pumped up!! But time will tell and I hope one day I can watch 5 1/2 yr old deer walk around and it not be uncommon!! Thanks for a great question!!!

 

[BSK]

I have read every post on here and they all are true and good points. I feel that most (not all) TN hunters shoot anything that walks!

I disagree. Looking at the harvest data, only around 40-45% of the harvest is yearlings, obviously many hunters are letting young bucks walk. If hunters were shooting the first buck they saw, the percent of the harvest that is yearlings would certainly exceed 65%.

 

[rtp]

may be a stupid question but what role does baiting have in drawing out the older bucks in TX so they are more visable.

Hard to say. Some mature deer are dumb as a bag of rocks and others are quite skillfull in avoiding the hunter. I see examples each year on my place. Not sure what baiting has to do with taking deer at certain ages? I do see some mature deer late in the season each year at feeders or food plots that I have not seen or gotten pics of each year . They have finally stopped chasing girls and have made food a priority. So yes, baiting does help in seeing them especially late in the season.

 

[rtp]

BSK, I understand the thought about high grading based on antler restrictions (ARs) but it has really helped in changing the mindset altogether in the counties where they have been in effect the longest. Again, I have no personal experience but have many friends who do. Like I said before the mentality was, I better shoot that buck because if I let him walk someone else will just shoot him. Now, because they were forced to start letting bucks walk based on the antler restriction and after a couple years they started seeing what type of horns a mature buck could produce, they now as a general group have no problem letting bucks walk. Now it is not unreasonable to set an expectation of getting an opportunity at a 150" buck every so often. I am not a proponent ARs as I dont have a dog in the hunt. Just posting an observation in the change of hunter mentality since they went into effect.

 

[BSK]

BSK, I understand the thought about high grading based on antler restrictions (ARs) but it has really helped in changing the mindset altogether in the counties where they have been in effect the longest.

The interesting thing is, we're seeing the same change in mindset, yet without restrictive laws. In fact, as our buck limit has been liberalized the last couple of years, harvested buck age has increased. And this is all due to hunter choice/restraint, not regulation.

I'm not anti-AR at all. I would just rather see education used over regulation. However, if regulation is absolutely necessary to produce an adequate buck age structure (as is the case in some super-high hunter density northern states), then so be it.