TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
In many areas I'm monitoring/hunting, this "used" to be true,
but now, the number one mortality for poults is not a lack of suitable habitat.
It has shifted to raptor predators.
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but now, the number one mortality for poults is not a lack of suitable habitat.
It has shifted to raptor predators.
That's the problem for TWRA you assume it has flopped everywhere just because it did in your area? Been doing it 41 years , better here now than it's been in my neck of the woods.(not a loaded area ,but more now than used to be). Again that's the problem most guys want regulations based on their area it puts TWRA in a bind. They have separated certain areas based on needs. Heck I accepted the fact that a 3 bird limit is plenty no problem at all, I will accept it if they go to a 2 bird limit if they feel it necessary, later season whatever. 30,000 birds or more each year since 2000 would not indicate a total state wide population flop to me. Again I totally believe what you say about your area and understand why you feel the way you do.
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Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
And a lot of those folks wI'll openly acknowledge this.
Last year a young man told me, "He wouldn't budge when we called, but everytime I tugged on the decoy string he'd come a little closer." A friend of mine admits if it weren't for blinds and decoys he'd never kill one. He has a pot but I honestly don't know whether he knows how to run it or not.
I for one think that ditching the plastic turkeys if even only for 10 days will help some. The hotter, muggier, snakier, and buggier it gets the more these folks will take up fishing or golfing for the rest of the spring.
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I think ditching the decoys for couple weeks into season would help tremendously!!! I believe they're a big reason why populations are down Think of how many times a dominant gobbler has been taken out of a area on opening day by a strutter/fan type decoy Possibly/Probably ruining that areas poult production for that year. I don't believe for one second most hens are bred by opening day. I bet half aren't Of course pushing season back another week or 2 would also accomplish this Personally I'm all for both. We've got
To change something because it's not just a couple people that are saying there are fewer birds. It's a lot
To change something because it's not just a couple people that are saying there are fewer birds. It's a lot
I never said it flopped everywhere lol but I know what will happen when it does flop, and I know from experience
You are probably right, it seems in my area that the turkeys were way behind for years. I have read different biologist say that the population will explode then drop off to what they call carrying capacity. I think the population here is still moving upward in that trend but like I said it has never been close to some other areas that I traveled and hunted . What worries me is what some others have said , some areas seem to have better poult production than others. I ran a couple of dog proof traps on my place for the first time this season and it was an eye opener. It seems hardly anyone coon hunts anymore, along with all the other predators, It really is hard for poults to make it. I believe every word you are saying and will do whatever needs to be done to help. I hope this study sheds some light on things that may help with future decisions not only for TN but other states that have had areas decline. I just tried to give another perspective on what the TWRA is dealing with. Hopefully things will turn for the better for you and others that have seen it firsthand.
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Setterman
Well-Known Member
It is quite coincidental that turkey population declines match up with the onslaught of strutter/jake decoys, reaping, and long range shotguns.
Everyone is trying to make this super complicated when it's really simple. we as a group are far too efficient at killing now, and there's vastly more of us.
Everyone is trying to make this super complicated when it's really simple. we as a group are far too efficient at killing now, and there's vastly more of us.
Truer words have never been spoken.
Setterman
Well-Known Member
To follow up on my previous post. It's crazy for me to think back to the early 2000's or there about. Myself and the other turkey hunters I talk to every day of the season back then we'd kill some birds every year but it was not like it has been for at least the last 10 years, where we all are filling our tags in numerous states. I'd be willing to bet this is repeated all over the state and country.
I started turkey hunting in 1994 as a student at Auburn. I'd kill one or two a season. I came home in 1998 first season I killed 2, and best I can recall this continued until the early 2000's when I began hitting Georgia, Alabama, Kentucky, and Tennessee each year.
Going from hunting a dozen times a year to 40-50 meant crap tons of experience and the law of averages suddenly shifted the numbers to killing double digit birds each year and limiting out in most every state I hunted. This pattern also carried across to the guys I hunted with or talk with daily during the season. I'm sure it also translated the same all over the country.
Enter into the equation the decoy craze combined with people like me and everyone is killing lots of turkeys. The decoy stuff eliminated that learning curve so many of us went through and has immediately made novice hunters successful.
My point is, all of the factors have caused the Population declines we are seeing. We are killing too many gobblers each spring, period. It's not habitat, its Not disease, it is simply us and our effectiveness.
The only way to fix it, is to lower the total kill. Shorten days, lower limits, or outlaw the stupid decoys
I started turkey hunting in 1994 as a student at Auburn. I'd kill one or two a season. I came home in 1998 first season I killed 2, and best I can recall this continued until the early 2000's when I began hitting Georgia, Alabama, Kentucky, and Tennessee each year.
Going from hunting a dozen times a year to 40-50 meant crap tons of experience and the law of averages suddenly shifted the numbers to killing double digit birds each year and limiting out in most every state I hunted. This pattern also carried across to the guys I hunted with or talk with daily during the season. I'm sure it also translated the same all over the country.
Enter into the equation the decoy craze combined with people like me and everyone is killing lots of turkeys. The decoy stuff eliminated that learning curve so many of us went through and has immediately made novice hunters successful.
My point is, all of the factors have caused the Population declines we are seeing. We are killing too many gobblers each spring, period. It's not habitat, its Not disease, it is simply us and our effectiveness.
The only way to fix it, is to lower the total kill. Shorten days, lower limits, or outlaw the stupid decoys
Exactly. Agencies are gonna have to regulate us because most of us are too selfish to do it ourselves I understand I use to be the same way. But I've come
To realize I've hurt my future hunting because I had the mentality I had a tag I was gonna fill it Stupid on my part
To realize I've hurt my future hunting because I had the mentality I had a tag I was gonna fill it Stupid on my part
Agree with you. I would add one thing because it's what I think happened in my area. Completely overnight I went from tons of turkeys to almost none, and the only thing I can think of that can do that is disease. Since it happened between thanksgiving and spring season, I say it was tainted corn that killed winter flocks. Then when de it's were added to the mix, the population has had no chance to recover. Finally, after years of few birds, this year looks "ok" and I'm actually seeing birds somewhat frequently again. Still no where near what I used to see 6+ years ago, but I may actually go out and kill one or two this year.
Bgoodman30
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No it is super complicated… The fall of the population in southern Giles, Lawrence and others doesn't have a damn thing to do with hunting… Everyone wants to point fingers at other hunters and TWRA but the only thing simple here is fewer poults hatch and survive….
Bgoodman30
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The easy answer and laughable solution IMO is continue to reduce hunter days and limits in hope it will save these birds… Ask Bob white if hunting was the problem….
The HARD things that need to be done the common man usually doesn't have the time, means, land or power to do….
Real solutions
1. Make coon hunting great again
2. Raise fur price commodities
3 ban bush hogging from April - June
4. Stop spraying everything
5. Stop bulldozing tree lines and fence rows
6. Ban chicken coops
7. Ban chicken litter fertilizer
8. Stop burning April- june
9. Stop development and habitat loss
10. Shoot raptors including owls (illegal)
11. Effectively trap/shoot everything with fur including your neighbors cat
12. Ban pesticides
13. Ban corn feed
14. Plant more brooding cover ($$$)
15. Incentivize farmers to stop farming
16. Rotate cattle grazing pastures
17. Make trapping great again.
18. Stop cutting hay
19. Incentivize trapping
20. Revert pasture to blackberries
21. Plant clover
22. Release crickets
23 ban import of corn feed
Just to name a few…
I am seeing some positive change with hunters and agencies getting educated but real change is going to take a lot… Recent example in Florida they are trying to be done burning before season.. Obviously these things can only be done on a small scale but now is the time. Turkey management has been neglected for too long. Hell I vividly remember watching TWRA bush hog nesting cover in late April….
The HARD things that need to be done the common man usually doesn't have the time, means, land or power to do….
Real solutions
1. Make coon hunting great again
2. Raise fur price commodities
3 ban bush hogging from April - June
4. Stop spraying everything
5. Stop bulldozing tree lines and fence rows
6. Ban chicken coops
7. Ban chicken litter fertilizer
8. Stop burning April- june
9. Stop development and habitat loss
10. Shoot raptors including owls (illegal)
11. Effectively trap/shoot everything with fur including your neighbors cat
12. Ban pesticides
13. Ban corn feed
14. Plant more brooding cover ($$$)
15. Incentivize farmers to stop farming
16. Rotate cattle grazing pastures
17. Make trapping great again.
18. Stop cutting hay
19. Incentivize trapping
20. Revert pasture to blackberries
21. Plant clover
22. Release crickets
23 ban import of corn feed
Just to name a few…
I am seeing some positive change with hunters and agencies getting educated but real change is going to take a lot… Recent example in Florida they are trying to be done burning before season.. Obviously these things can only be done on a small scale but now is the time. Turkey management has been neglected for too long. Hell I vividly remember watching TWRA bush hog nesting cover in late April….
I personally kill way less now than before, not because of my abilities (I still suck) but because I feel guilty about killing them when I know we have a issue.
I give them more of a pass now than ever before…only for them to be blasted later in the day/season.
Im very tempted to put those ethos aside and just it while I still can.
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
With the exception of releasing crickets and killing raptors, many of the items Bgoodman posts we've successfully done the last decade. On their own, all of them helped a little but the biggest influencer has been incrementally growing the local flock to a point not even mortality can keep up with reproduction. Just think how many nests of 12-14 eggs a single skunk, diller, coon, or grinner can remove. Add several of the other items listed and it does indeed make a difference.
If you've got enough land to manage, pick a few of the items on his list and start there. If you don't have much/any land to manage, just start working on the nest raiders (easy) and consider not killing the only breeder within earshot the first week every spring (difficult...I get it).
Timestamp is correct. Let this guy do his thing and best case you got 144-168 eggs from him and his girlfriends before the nest raiders get going. Kill'im day1 or even week 1 and all bets are off...and that's even before the egg bandits begin their thievery.
If you've got enough land to manage, pick a few of the items on his list and start there. If you don't have much/any land to manage, just start working on the nest raiders (easy) and consider not killing the only breeder within earshot the first week every spring (difficult...I get it).
Timestamp is correct. Let this guy do his thing and best case you got 144-168 eggs from him and his girlfriends before the nest raiders get going. Kill'im day1 or even week 1 and all bets are off...and that's even before the egg bandits begin their thievery.
Your exactly right. The fall of the population here had absolutely 0 to do with hunting. We went from having 10-20 toms a year to Nothing in a winter.
Exact same with my little piece of turkey heaven in Hickman county. Only difference is that I used to have 20-30 toms to chose from. I do think decoy use has kept the population from rebounding though. I've only killed one bird in the last 4 maybe 5 years, where the previous 4 I killed 14. The guys on the leases around here still bring 4-5 guys for every 200 acres and kill every bird they can.
Gobble4me757
Well-Known Member
I mean if you want me to not dumb it down then I'll say both of the peak gobbling periods have subsided by that time according to many hours/ years over multiple properties. I'm not one of the "they're done" persons, but it doesn't take an "ignorant fool" to realize that you are deer hunting them when they don't gobble but one time as you are sitting on a greenfield sweating your balls off all the while getting torn up by no see ums, mosquitoes, and black flies. You probably wouldn't understand as you've probably never dealt with those conditions down there.
Gobble4me757
Well-Known Member
A lot of the original recommendations are based on an entirely untouched and unhunted property in South Carolina. There wasn't at the time any comparison study done on different properties. Ever since, the states have taken and ran with it. Thankfully, now turkeys for tomorrow with auburn university are conducting some fantastic projects that hopefully will prove what we already know in that nest predator management and habitat management are the only conclusive ways to increase turkey population over a length of time. There are studies out there that prove that nest predators account for a high percentage of nest destruction as well as prove that trapping increases egg survival. The states used hypothesis to base their season and gobbler restrictions in an effort to decrease opportunities which actually has shown no increase in population. Just look at arkansas and Kentucky… we all known that populations will increase and decrease as a natural phenomenon but you see state after state take credit for any increase yet when the natural decrease happens, they immediately tighten up restrictions until you get to the point where is it even worth hunting that state… Lastly, I'd encourage everyone to do their own research instead of trusting "experts". Look no further than fauchi as to why that's important. Chamberlain I'm sure wasn't doing all the talks and promoting these hypotheses for free I'm just saying.
Look, I'm all for helping out the turkeys. I want that clear. As a physician myself, I have to practice based on studies that are conclusive and significant. I know it's difficult to obtain such with the wild turkey but it isn't impossible. I cannot and will not support regulations based on hypothesis and will support all the research that is needed to have clear answers. I'm afraid as we have seen many times over that once these laws are enacted, we will never see a change due to the pride of the people in charge. Chuck sykes and the cab of Alabama as a lifelong resident there (until recently) have done nothing to benefit the turkey population. Look for instance, why does Clarke county and other counties have a fall season because a senator likes to fall turkey hunt…yet you push our season back till March 25th…sorry for the long post boys
I'm passionate about this stuff deerhunter10
Well-Known Member
You can't ban farming. This list is ridiculous. Farmers are put in a tough spot. Because of the government and prices we are caught between a rock and a hard place.
