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The case for banning the fan. Outdoor life

TheLBLman said:
Another aspect hardly mentioned . . . . . . . .
Dead is dead.
But delaying those deaths only a week or two
could significantly improve nesting success?

To what extent does it matter just which hunters and by which tactics they kill "x" number of birds,
assuming those birds end up dead regardless?

Just noting that most of the hunters wanting to outlaw decoys, well, they themselves limit out with 3 birds every year? And because they themselves haven't dragged around decoys a few times, they fail to understand how the liabilities of decoys about cancel out the assets of decoys.

Avid, accomplished turkey hunters can kill the limit every year,
regardless whatever current tactics we make illegal?

IMO, TIMING of the season opening date has more to do with the price of beans
than the killing tactics or just which of the hunters do the most killing. By opening later, fewer birds would be lost to baiting, and more breeding would get completed with more hens, providing improved nesting success, regardless how many longbeards get killed.
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If decoys are such a liability then outlawing them should help the hunting community be more successful.

If decoys are such a liability why is youtube absolutely loaded with videos of birds running in to their death?

If they're such a liability how has Dave Smith stayed in business?
 
Bgoodman30 said:
No disrespect but I am not sure where you get your data about birds being killed over bait? I honestly have never heard of a tom being killed over bait? I even know people that do it on their farm but didn't make a hill a beans come spring season. I get its a good attractant before and after season but every gobbler I have ever killed could care less about a pile of corn during the spring they barely even eat at all?
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I've been feeding the birds at my place the past 2 weeks. I could have killed 5 Toms and 10+ jakes that came in to the "bait". They come to it every single day and they are scarfing down the seeds. Just looked out the window as I was typing this and a Tom is out there right now.
854C7D63-BD36-4092-8EB3-7ACE0D1DBD0E.jpeg
 
I'll list just a handful of what I think is causing the problem.

1. Lack of hunters that target nest raiders. Raccoons, possums, cats either bobcat or the common "stray" cats that do a number on native song birds.
2. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of prime turkey and deer habitat turned into cookie cutter houses and asphalt roads.
3. The crazy advertisement of come one come all for out of staters. I don't care what anyone has to say that it's a small "percentage" of harvest. There should be a limit of 1 bird for them and it should be a limited number of them that can come hunt.
4. Season starts early and bush hogging early
5. The need longer opportunities as in night time coyote hunting, year round raccoon hunting just to name a few.
 
gasman said:
Turkey hunters whine more than @RUGER whines about TWRA and the wind. 🤷‍♂️

Ima see myself out of here now.
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You wouldn't see any whining if we were killing 70,000 toms annually like TWRA predicted would be our plateau back in the early 2000s.

The most passionate turkey hunters are the ones that want to keep doing until they die. It's not a pasttime or a hobby. It's part of life itself. And usually the most passionate turkey hunters often have more knowledge and understanding of turkey behavior and turkey population dynamics.

Which is exactly why the most passionate turkey hunters are 'whining' as you put it.... because they understand there will be not be a huntable population of birds in TN in 20 years if current poor reproduction trends combined with excessive early gobbler harvests continue. We just won't find something else to hunt in the spring... or go fishing... we will still be turkey hunting 35 out of 42 days of the spring season even if we don't hear a single gobble. It is who we are.

But it frustrates the hell out of us when we see the writing on the wall. Everything is NOT OK. While none of us know for certain which regulation changes will reverse the population decline, we know that status quo is NOT an option. And we have precedent... quail and grouse.

So for goodness sake, DO SOMETHING TWRA... (and no, reducing limit from 4 to 3 does NOTHING... just a pacifier to quiet the pudding headed hunters).

And DO SOMETHING HUNTERS! Put back more than you take! Improve habitat, trap predators, self limit harvest early season, report poachers or those going over the limit, encourage landowners to take a vested interest in supporting turkeys. Or we won't have any to hunt in 20 years.

Of you arent running dp traps around your yard and barns right now, you are missing a golden opportunity. Easy to check in the mornings before work, and totally legal to remove the nuisance animals even after official trapping season is over. If you are taking more turkeys than you are giving back, you are part of the problem.
 

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megalomaniac said:
You wouldn't see any whining if we were killing 70,000 toms annually like TWRA predicted would be our plateau back in the early 2000s.

The most passionate turkey hunters are the ones that want to keep doing until they die. It's not a pasttime or a hobby. It's part of life itself. And usually the most passionate turkey hunters often have more knowledge and understanding of turkey behavior and turkey population dynamics.

Which is exactly why the most passionate turkey hunters are 'whining' as you put it.... because they understand there will be not be a huntable population of birds in TN in 20 years if current poor reproduction trends combined with excessive early gobbler harvests continue. We just won't find something else to hunt in the spring... or go fishing... we will still be turkey hunting 35 out of 42 days of the spring season even if we don't hear a single gobble. It is who we are.

But it frustrates the hell out of us when we see the writing on the wall. Everything is NOT OK. While none of us know for certain which regulation changes will reverse the population decline, we know that status quo is NOT an option. And we have precedent... quail and grouse.

So for goodness sake, DO SOMETHING TWRA... (and no, reducing limit from 4 to 3 does NOTHING... just a pacifier to quiet the pudding headed hunters).

And DO SOMETHING HUNTERS! Put back more than you take! Improve habitat, trap predators, self limit harvest early season, report poachers or those going over the limit, encourage landowners to take a vested interest in supporting turkeys. Or we won't have any to hunt in 20 years.

Of you arent running dp traps around your yard and barns right now, you are missing a golden opportunity. Easy to check in the mornings before work, and totally legal to remove the nuisance animals even after official trapping season is over. If you are taking more turkeys than you are giving back, you are part of the problem.
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Take more predators? I bet you are one of those guys that whine because my coon hounds crossed your property line. Which is exactly why I quit running dogs. Because a dog CANNOT read a posted sign.
 
gasman said:
Take more predators? I bet you are one of those guys that whine because my coon hounds crossed your property line. Which is exactly why I quit running dogs. Because a dog CANNOT read a posted sign.
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As long as you weren't one of the dozen coon hunters who cut my fences or the 2 dozen coon hunters who let dogs out from the road directly on my property I wouldn't have whined (or prosecuted). I've let 10 or 15 coon hunters hunt my places that asked permission... unfortunately for coon hunters, too may bad apples spoiled the bunch for the rest.
 
Setterman said:
If decoys are such a liability then outlawing them should help the hunting community be more successful.

If decoys are such a liability why is youtube absolutely loaded with videos of birds running in to their death?

If they're such a liability how has Dave Smith stayed in business?
Click to expand...

First, I'm just saying they're as much an overall liability as asset.
Sometimes, they can be more of either.
But if I, or you, carried them around all the time, we would have fewer, not more, opportunities to kill turkeys.

Why so many you tube videos and Dave Smith doing well?
It's mostly successful marketing and the fact fools and their money quickly part.

Unsuccessful hunt videos don't get many "likes" or watches.
You mainly see the ones where a turkey is seen or killed,
and it wouldn't be smart marketing to post the footage where
birds get repelled rather than attracted.

Lastly, there is no video footage of the birds spooked & never seen
for no other reason than the hunters were using decoys.

I could personally care less whether decoys are legal or not.

My belief is their use ultimately makes little difference in how many longbeards die over the course of the season. Wherever turkeys are hunted, most longbeards are going to die, a minority percentage may survive.

If you want to improve carry-over & nesting success, the single most regulatory thing we can do is delay the opening date. It is also the least divisive of the options.

That said, reaping or fanning should be illegal, imo, due to how stupidly unsafe it is, and many novice hunters today are incredibly too stupid to realize this, mainly due to those youtube "marketing" videos.
 
gasman said:
Take more predators? I bet you are one of those guys that whine because my coon hounds crossed your property line. Which is exactly why I quit running dogs. Because a dog CANNOT read a posted sign.
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Talk about making a stretch to try and prove some BS ancillary point.

As a casual self proclaimed turkey hunter you don't get and will never understand why some of us are so passionate. Which is totally fine.

To make the asinine statement you just did shows some harbored bitterness. You don't know Mega or how he'd react.

As a landowner myself, all I'd ask is if someone was hunting coons on neighboring tracts give me a call and let me know. I'd gladly say go get them, but if you come on my land without my permission I'm going to be hot. It's common courtesy
 
TheLBLman said:
First, I'm just saying they're as much an overall liability as asset.
Sometimes, they can be more of either.
But if I, or you, carried them around all the time, we would have fewer, not more, opportunities to kill turkeys.

Why so many you tube videos and Dave Smith doing well?
It's mostly successful marketing and the fact fools and their money quickly part.

Unsuccessful hunt videos don't get many "likes" or watches.
You mainly see the ones where a turkey is seen or killed,
and it wouldn't be smart marketing to post the footage where
birds get repelled rather than attracted.

Lastly, there is no video footage of the birds spooked & never seen
for no other reason than the hunters were using decoys.

I could personally care less whether decoys are legal or not.

My belief is their use ultimately makes little difference in how many longbeards die over the course of the season. Wherever turkeys are hunted, most longbeards are going to die, a minority percentage may survive.

If you want to improve carry-over & nesting success, the single most regulatory thing we can do is delay the opening date. It is also the least divisive of the options.

That said, reaping or fanning should be illegal, imo, due to how stupidly unsafe it is, and many novice hunters today are incredibly too stupid to realize this, mainly due to those youtube "marketing" videos.
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We see the decoy stuff totally different and that's absolutely fine.

I agree the best compromise and approach for now is probably pushing the season back.

I am also wondering if stopping hunting at noon might be of benefit As well
 
Setterman said:
We see the decoy stuff totally different and that's absolutely fine.

I agree the best compromise and approach for now is probably pushing the season back.

I am also wondering if stopping hunting at noon might be of benefit As well
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I have always been opposed to ending turkey hunting at noon in TN, because when I come up, I'm in the woods until I get my bird or 5pm, whichever comes first...

But in a way it would be nice if I were forced to stop at noon so I could get all my chores done (spraying, deer stand maintenance, pulling soil samples, refreshing salt licks, grocery shopping, cooking supper, etc) that gets pushed off to the few days I kill a bird early am.

I don't know it would make much of a difference (Missouri comes to mind) tho.

Thinking back over this season, 2 of our birds came after noon, and 2 more were right around noon.

The real tale of the tape will be to compare August brood surveys in the TN counties that opened 2w later than the rest of the state. If those counties have a higher PPH than the rest of the counties, that clear proof that delayed season opening is beneficial. If not... well... I just don't know what to do to stem the bleeding.
 
gasman said:
Turkey hunters whine more than @RUGER whines about TWRA and the wind. 🤷‍♂️

Ima see myself out of here now.
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Bye Felicia! 😜🤣

I was just flipping channels and they're bow hunting turkeys on Bowhunter TV. Guy slips into a thick area where the turkeys are hanging out in the middle of day, gets to 15 yards and shoots the bird. Apparently had already killed 1 this way because they put this pic up. No idea who he is but this was a new one on me. Check out the bow on the right. ECD23662-DFFE-4550-89BF-66AD3A575EB3.jpeg
 
gasman said:
Coming from a 1 weekend a year turkey hunter, Fanning, Reaping, Run And Gun, IS NOT the reason for the decline of turkeys. Its actually the loss of habitat. Logging. Years ago, when a farm was logged, the undergrowth was burned. Now It is not. Machinery now doesn't require the burning of undergrowth. Now, the problem with this is, a turkey needs 4-5 steps to begin flight. They cant get that in thick undergrowth. The predator doesn't need a clear path, he can slip in and ambush the turkey before it can take flight.

I don't care either way for banning fanning or not. It is just as ethical as deer hunting in a ground blind sitting on a food plot IMO.

Now, Everyone argue amongst yourselves but chew on the fact that reaping is NOT the cause of the declining population.

disclaimer*** I have never taken a turkey by this method and probably never will, but it because of safety and not because YOU think it's unethical.
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You're right it's not the sole reason. It's a myriad of things combined that are causing the decline. We're talking about some that are probably the easiest to control as sportsman to help ease the burden on our resource.
 
SES said:
I've been feeding the birds at my place the past 2 weeks. I could have killed 5 Toms and 10+ jakes that came in to the "bait". They come to it every single day and they are scarfing down the seeds. Just looked out the window as I was typing this and a Tom is out there right now.View attachment 136553
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But you didn't shoot them? I know some outlaws but still never heard of any turkeys hunters that use corn to kill their birds….
 
Dennis said:
So here the author concludes that the main issue causing our declining turkey population is the killing of dominant toms before they have had a chance to breed their hens. I also suspect that is a major factor in the population decline. Then he proceeds to focus on banning reaping and full strut decoys as the solution.

Why do you suppose he didn't instead propose moving the season back, which would immediately and directly address the issue? Why do you suppose he doesn't propose banning these newer shotgun loads that have effectively doubled the killing range?

The number of dominant toms killed by reaping would pale in comparison to the number killed beyond 30 yds, enabled by these newer loads.

Also what about semi strut male decoys? He thinks dominant toms only approach full strut toms?

I don't think the author understands turkey behaviors all that well if this is his recommended first course of action.
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Sounds like came straight from the mouth of a person who fans and reaps to me. READ THE ARTICLE.
 
prstide said:
You're right it's not the sole reason. It's a myriad of things combined that are causing the decline. We're talking about some that are probably the easiest to control as sportsman to help ease the burden on our resource.
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No. Yall are picking and choosing the things you don't like. You want to place blame on something that has nothing to with the problem at hand.

And I really don't see the gripe about the turkey population. Those things are everywhere. I see turkey every day while driving the roads. Not that many years ago there were no turkey or very few in West Tennessee. Now they are everywhere.
 
gasman said:
No. Yall are picking and choosing the things you don't like. You want to place blame on something that has nothing to with the problem at hand.

And I really don't see the gripe about the turkey population. Those things are everywhere. I see turkey every day while driving the roads. Not that many years ago there were no turkey or very few in West Tennessee. Now they are everywhere.
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I think the reason most people are talking about fanning and reaping is because that is what the article is on and what the OP posted and ask us to read and comment on. I know that is the reason I have spoken on the subject. I didn't pick and choose I simply commented on the subject matter of the post. You are correct in the fact that I don't like it, to me it's insane. Messing with the possibility of getting shot in the face over a gobbler? Do I think turkeys get killed early that years ago never would have by using this tactic, absolutely! No way you call a boss Tom away from his hens with a call and nothing to see(very rare) . Again we can all have an opinion on it , they will probably differ somewhat but that's okay. If it's legal and you want to do it then it's up to each individual to make a decision. I will continue to send in my comments that probably do not get read (Lol)that state it should be illegal for safety purposes. That's the obvious thing I see wrong with the tactic without even getting into it's possible effect on turkey populations.
 
gasman said:
No. Yall are picking and choosing the things you don't like. You want to place blame on something that has nothing to with the problem at hand.

And I really don't see the gripe about the turkey population. Those things are everywhere. I see turkey every day while driving the roads. Not that many years ago there were no turkey or very few in West Tennessee. Now they are everywhere.
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We can agree to disagree...and knowing your bird ID skills I'll lean towards all the West TN turkey sightings you have to the uptick of crows and "turkey" vulchers visible in ag fields that have now been sprayed and had a disc run over em. ;)
 

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