Our foodplots (except clover) were pretty much a bust this spring but I'm seeing more good bucks earlier than any other year. Believe it has to do with us burning approx 100 acres across ~15 areas combined with the wet spring.
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Early Successional success buck pic dump
- Thread starter DPinTN
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Very plump, healthy looking deer! Whatever you're doing is working.
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Really healthy bucks, don't see many that fat this early for sure!
You getting a lot of doe pics?
Reason I asked is if this year is different seeing more bucks early, but fewer does usually means your habitat has degraded, not mproved. Does get the best habitat to rear fawns and the bachelor groups of bucks get pushed off to less desirable areas
You getting a lot of doe pics?
Reason I asked is if this year is different seeing more bucks early, but fewer does usually means your habitat has degraded, not mproved. Does get the best habitat to rear fawns and the bachelor groups of bucks get pushed off to less desirable areas
JCDEERMAN
Well-Known Member
Nice bucks. Good on yall to get on the burning.
Interesting point and thankfully (I guess
) I'm having to filter thru loads of doe/fawn pics to find these guys.
^^^ Best of both worlds, you have a lot of the deer herd using your land. Best of luck this fall, hope they stay in your area.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Agree completely. During the season, we run very close to a 1:1 sex ratio. But right now, during fawn-rearing season, we're running 10.5 does per buck.
backyardtndeer
Well-Known Member
Some great bucks there, and they do look very healthy.
Bryan - read/watched/listened to a lot of habitat guys about not turning your property into a doe sink. How do you balance out having great habitat but not so great that bucks get pushed out?
My assumption that it depends on a multitude of factors and objectives. My home sits on 59 acres that I've done a lot of habitat work to and I hold several doe family groups year round. However during rut boy do the bucks move in. i assume on a larger property 1000+ acres you would want to see does and bucks taking residence in different areas not completely leave the property. Thoughts?
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
LOL, I'm not BSK, but what you are asking for is 2 completely different things whether you realize it or not.
If you are managing for the velvet hunt, it's a crapshoot. You want fair habitat, or an overabundance of awesome food (big soybean fields) that are so large the bachelor groups and does can coexist in the same 75ac field without getting on each other's nerves. But that's just 1 weekend of hunting.
For traditional rut hunting mid November (The way I manage) you want the very best habitat possible that can feed the most number of does to remain healthy, while at the same time providing dense cover for bedding for does and bucks that move in during the rut for security. Pull as many bucks from surrounding properties as possible, and don't let them even know ow they have been hunted until after they are dead on the ground.
If you are wanting an all around property that is good from September thru January, you need everything... tons of cover and bedding, LOTS of diversity for bucks to isolate themselves, and plenty of food... but not so much food you have an excess of does during hunting season. Think moderate SOCIAL carrying capacity.
For me, I shoot my wad in November when bucks are most vulnerable. TONS of food, tons of does to eat the food, so tons of bucks that move in for the orgy. But outside the 1st rut in mid Nov and 2nd rut in mid Dec, bucks don't want to live on my main hunting places.
Thanks mega… I think the root of my question is why are so many managers against making your property a "doe sink"?
I also prefer to manage for the rut by holding does and pulling in bucks which to me points to the benefit of making your property a "doe sink" As you mentioned the difficult part is making your property attractive but not TOO attractive which we are dealing with now. We have half a dozen plots that are 4+ acres (2 are 10+ acres) and we can't grow a good crop of soybeans due to the browse pressure. Already planting seeds for a good old fashioned doe-ma-geddon this year to try and drop our numbers.
I also prefer to manage for the rut by holding does and pulling in bucks which to me points to the benefit of making your property a "doe sink" As you mentioned the difficult part is making your property attractive but not TOO attractive which we are dealing with now. We have half a dozen plots that are 4+ acres (2 are 10+ acres) and we can't grow a good crop of soybeans due to the browse pressure. Already planting seeds for a good old fashioned doe-ma-geddon this year to try and drop our numbers.
MickThompson
Well-Known Member
I'm not mega or BSK but I think a big part of it is geography- many of those managers are up north where high deer densities, short growing seasons, and smaller home ranges can put even more nutritional stress on a herd and habitat. It also seems to be a strategy focused on killing deer outside of the rut. That said, i don't but into the "out of sight, out of mind" mentality when it comes to managing deer. Those strategies don't work nearly as well in Tennessee hardwoods and they do in small broken woodlots that back up to picked crop fields
If you've ever seen one it would be clear. My brother has one. It's a real phenomena. His place is about the size of yours but is in southern Ohio where baiting is legal. Not only is the place managed to the hilt, no expense spared, but he also runs two supplemental feed sites year round. They've got hardwood mast, regen cuts, an orchard, food plots, a pond, maincured trail system throughout, etc. And deer are everywhere.......if you like hunting does & sub 2yr old bucks. He's killed two older class bucks in ten years and only one was really big enough to tip your hat at. He's had a few true giants on cam in the same timeframe but almost exclusively at night and only in the heat of the seeking phase. Otherwise it's a buck desert that he spends exorbinant money on. He suspects and I agree that his does actually leave the property to get bred, then immediately return. The breeding is happening because he has fawns all over the place all summer long, but with the lack of bucks being seen from stand or trail cam, it's hard imagine any other scenario besides the girls leaving to get bred.
After hunting the place many, many years and observing the behavior of the deer I have concluded that the sheer number of unreceptive does make it too uncomfortable for older bucks to visit, and I think they might actually push the estrus does out while they're hot. It's pretty normal for an estrus doe to separate from her group until breeding has occurred. The bucks I believe cruise the periphery of the property and encounter enough receptive wandering estrus does that there is not much reason to stress themselves with all the naggy Karens inside his place. I could be reading it all wrong but that's ceretainly what appears to be happening. Whatever the reason, his place is covered up with does & young deer while almost never having an older class buck to hunt, even during rut.
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
I think this exactly right...
Not sure if massive doe populations push the estrus does off to breed, or it's the sheer number of does that come in heat at the same time and it's just bad luck the target buck goes from lockdown to lockdown from doe to doe to doe ...
But does sinks are BAD when it comes to successful hunting for mature bucks
What you want is a property that provides everything... food, cover, does. And there is always such a thing as 'too much of a good thing. Too much food, and they can feed after dark. Too much cover and you never see them. Too many does and esteus does become a dime a dozen . You want to provide everything, but in balance. And that's the fun part of management.
This year I have already targeted 14 does on 500ac to be killed. Good fawn crop past 2 years, this year looking good as well. My cover and food should be fine (as long as I get rains on upcoming plots). Bit it's all about a balance between food, security, and does.
Agreed. Balance is the key of all of it.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Some phenomenal input on this thread!
As Ski and Mega have alluded too, having the ultimate doe sink is going to be a problem. Personally, I don't care if my property (or any property I'm managing) is a doe sink as long as it's not the best doe sink in the entire area. Basically, having a moderate doe sink is great, but having the ultimate doe sink is not!
For my personal property, I follow a very close system to Mega's. We are going to do 90% of our hunting for the year during MZ season and the first week of gun season. This is the peak of the rut locally and our only chance to get mature bucks during daylight. So we try to hold a fair number of doe social groups into this time period. That's not especially difficult because once the neighboring ag fields are harvested, and acorns are falling, all the local deer head into the hardwoods. The trick is to make sure my place is one of the better hardwood properties in the area - especially when it comes to sanctuary cover. THAT is going to draw a considerable number of deer once the guns start going off. In addition, all the brushy areas of regrowth we created from logging are the true carriers of the temporary deer density. We have food plots, and they are wonderful attractants, but it is all the natural browse that truly carries the herd.
As Ski and Mega have alluded too, having the ultimate doe sink is going to be a problem. Personally, I don't care if my property (or any property I'm managing) is a doe sink as long as it's not the best doe sink in the entire area. Basically, having a moderate doe sink is great, but having the ultimate doe sink is not!
For my personal property, I follow a very close system to Mega's. We are going to do 90% of our hunting for the year during MZ season and the first week of gun season. This is the peak of the rut locally and our only chance to get mature bucks during daylight. So we try to hold a fair number of doe social groups into this time period. That's not especially difficult because once the neighboring ag fields are harvested, and acorns are falling, all the local deer head into the hardwoods. The trick is to make sure my place is one of the better hardwood properties in the area - especially when it comes to sanctuary cover. THAT is going to draw a considerable number of deer once the guns start going off. In addition, all the brushy areas of regrowth we created from logging are the true carriers of the temporary deer density. We have food plots, and they are wonderful attractants, but it is all the natural browse that truly carries the herd.
That's the phrase that sums up my place. During spring & summer I have very few deer. Bucks leave around February and does leave before fawning. Due to the property layout I keep around three distinct doe groups and only the most dominant of each group stay to raise fawns on the place. The rest have to go elsewhere. Only a few bucks stay as well but I have no idea how that pecking order is established.
The property is big mature oak hickory forest in steep hill country, surrounded by 10,000 acres of the same. As far as I'm aware I'm the only one doing any habitat management for miles any direction. Low deer density. There are three food plots with adjacent bedding/regen cuts. The idea was to set them up like neighborhoods of a city, separated by terrain and distance with a network of trails connecting it all. In between is open mature hardwoods with lots of hard mast. Naturally there is a resident doe group for each respective "neighborhood" and while they do meet up to socialize and roam, they largely bed & live within their respective core. The void areas offer plenty room and solitude for bucks.
Around September the does with mostly grown fawns begin moving back in with their groups. October is when bucks begin pouring in. This last year camera census showed 30 individual antlered bucks that were familiar enough to be identified. For the first time since I've been tracking it the number of 3.5yr+ bucks outnumbered the 2.5yr & under, and not coincidentally it was a terrible year for busted & broken racks. There were fourteen 2.5yr & yearlings, seven 3.5yr, six 4.5yr, and three 5.5+yr olds. And they destroyed one another. So apparently there is trouble at each end of the spectrum. Balance seems to be the ticket.
Then come February the bucks mostly leave, and by May the majority of does have also left to their fawning grounds. From May through September I have maybe 10 deer total using the property. No idea where they go and I'm unsure if they leave because that's when I'm on property most doing work or if it just happens coincidentally. But the term "temporary deer density" is a perfect fit.
You got some good ones for sure! Good luck!
BSK
Well-Known Member
Ski,
We set an all-time record for unique bucks on my place last year with 70. Average is 38. However, the number of older bucks (2 1/2+) were only up a little (average is 18 and we picked up 24). We just had the most amazing, massive influx of yearling bucks I've ever seen. And most were not resident. They were dispersing/wandering yearlings that we would get on cam for a week or two and then they were gone. Never seen anything like it. We normally get around 20 yearling bucks each year. Last year we photographed 46 unique yearlings!
We set an all-time record for unique bucks on my place last year with 70. Average is 38. However, the number of older bucks (2 1/2+) were only up a little (average is 18 and we picked up 24). We just had the most amazing, massive influx of yearling bucks I've ever seen. And most were not resident. They were dispersing/wandering yearlings that we would get on cam for a week or two and then they were gone. Never seen anything like it. We normally get around 20 yearling bucks each year. Last year we photographed 46 unique yearlings!
