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20 gauge tss

TheLBLman said:
Like I said, 20 ga TSS vs 12 ga LEAD loads.
It's not propaganda.

Of course, without a doubt, a 2 oz of TSS from a 12
surpasses 1 1/2 oz of TSS from a 20.

But I'm at the point of not caring that my 12 adds a couple yards range.
Why carry a relatively heavy 12 with TSS (or lead)
when the lighter loaded 20 is still deadly out to 45 yds or beyond?

For me, it's not about extending range, but reducing weight (and recoil).

There you go. And no doubt, CONSISTENTLY DEADLY out to 40 yds.
Such simply could not be accomplished with lead loads.
TSS also produces more uniform patterns, meaning a turkey's head is less likely to find a hole in pattern. It can also allow you to use a more open choke, eliminating many of the misses some are experiencing with their super-tight "turkey" chokes.

If I buy a new dedicated turkey gun, it will probably be a 28 ga autoloader, and the reason will be because it can be made, with TSS, consistently deadly out to 40-45 yds. Such was unheard of before TSS.
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Major obfuscation, Wes, that has little to nothing to do in regards to the post that I responded to. I highly suspect in a former life you must have been a politician.

What I commented on had nothing to do with the merits of 20 ga versus 12 as far as weight, recoil, etc. It was a simple statement you made that the pixie 20 ga loads SURPASS a 12 ga. lead load.

I have consumed enough of the pixie-lade to buy in that the magic death ray shot makes a 20 ga shotgun pretty much EQUAL to the 12 ga. that I carried for many years. My 12 ga. didn't leave the gun safe last year, and, unless I get nostalgic, it probably won't be out this April. Carrying a lighter gun up and down those Stewart Co ridges is easier on an old man.

But, in a former life, I spend enough time down the rabbit hole dealing with scientific studies on terminal ballistics to have a very firm opinion that the 20 ga pixie loads do not SURPASS a 12 ga. lead load. The studies I delved into were not manufacturer, $$$$ driven propaganda from companies making mega dollars with the China imported miracle shot. The level of propaganda from some of these companies reminds me a lot of the folks trying to tell me that if I don't ditch my F250 for an EV that we all will die.

So, there isn't enough pixie-lade out there for me to buy into your theory. But, I will be happy in a few weeks to hook up a tow strap to my dinosaur truck and pull your EV out of the mud.

JK, and have a great evening.
 
scn said:
Major obfuscation, Wes, that has little to nothing to do in regards to the post that I responded to. I highly suspect in a former life you must have been a politician.

What I commented on had nothing to do with the merits of 20 ga versus 12 as far as weight, recoil, etc. It was a simple statement you made that the pixie 20 ga loads SURPASS a 12 ga. lead load.

I have consumed enough of the pixie-lade to buy in that the magic death ray shot makes a 20 ga shotgun pretty much EQUAL to the 12 ga. that I carried for many years. My 12 ga. didn't leave the gun safe last year, and, unless I get nostalgic, it probably won't be out this April. Carrying a lighter gun up and down those Stewart Co ridges is easier on an old man.

But, in a former life, I spend enough time down the rabbit hole dealing with scientific studies on terminal ballistics to have a very firm opinion that the 20 ga pixie loads do not SURPASS a 12 ga. lead load. The studies I delved into were not manufacturer, $$$$ driven propaganda from companies making mega dollars with the China imported miracle shot. The level of propaganda from some of these companies reminds me a lot of the folks trying to tell me that if I don't ditch my F250 for an EV that we all will die.

So, there isn't enough pixie-lade out there for me to buy into your theory. But, I will be happy in a few weeks to hook up a tow strap to my dinosaur truck and pull your EV out of the mud.

JK, and have a great evening.
Click to expand...

My votes for the pixie dust 20 ga loads outperforming 12 ga lead. Absolutely...
 
scn said:
spend enough time down the rabbit hole dealing with scientific studies on terminal ballistics to have a very firm opinion that the 20 ga pixie loads do not SURPASS a 12 ga. lead load.
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I just disagree with you. It remains my belief that 1 1/2 oz of #9 TSS (regardless if coming out a 20 or a 12 ga gun) has superior downrange performance to 2 oz of #5 copper-plated lead. I agree that margin is minimal if comparing a 20 with TSS to a higher-velocity 12 with a heavier payload of lead.

At the muzzle, you are absolutely correct. Different story at 45 yds.
Where the the #5 lead falls behind the #9 TSS is with pattern density, pattern uniformity & velocity retention, giving the edge to the TSS, and the further downrange, the more the equation favors TSS.

You think a 12 ga throwing lead is superior to a 20 ga throwing TSS?
We'll just have to disagree on that one.

But I think we'll both agree that under 35 yards, none of this banter matters :)

And I would be humble & happy for you to pull me out of the mud with your F-250 :p
Unfortunately, if you come over to "turkey camp" this week, you will be mired up to your axles, and we'll both need to two 4-wheel-drive tractors to get us out. Even the loggers were getting everything they had stuck last week, and I mean really stuck.

When your truck gets stuck, it is really STUCK! :p
 
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TheLBLman said:
I just disagree with you. It remains my belief that 1 1/2 oz of #9 TSS (regardless if coming out a 20 or a 12 ga gun) has superior downrange performance to 2 oz of #5 copper-plated lead. I agree that margin is minimal if comparing a 20 with TSS to a higher-velocity 12 with a heavier payload of lead.

Where the the #5 lead falls behind the #9 TSS is with pattern density & pattern uniformity, giving the edge to the TSS.

You think a 12 ga throwing lead is superior to a 20 ga throwing TSS?
We'll just have to disagree on that one.

But I think we'll both agree that under 35 yards, none of this banter matters :)

And I would be humble & happy for you to pull me out of the mud with your F-250 :p
Unfortunately, if you come over to "turkey camp" this week, you will be mired up to your axles, and we'll both need to two 4-wheel-drive tractors to get us out. Even the loggers were getting everything they had stuck last week, and I mean really stuck.

When your truck gets stuck, it is really STUCK! :p
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Without a doubt. And, it has been REALLY stuck on multiple occasions over the last 20 yrs. Thank you for the heads up as I was considering heading over there this week.
 
scn said:
I haven't seen anyone say that.

I have said, and will continue to say based on scientific studies and not $$$$ driven propaganda that a 20 ga TSS load does not surpass a 12 ga. lead load. There is no doubt that a 12 ga TSS load is superior to a 12 ga lead load.
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A 20 gauge tss out patterns and out penatrates any 12 gauge lead load , there is no denying what is right infront of you. Paper, metal,ballistic gel, turkey what ever you want to test it on
 
knightrider said:
A 20 gauge tss out patterns and out penatrates any 12 gauge lead load , there is no denying what is right infront of you. Paper, metal,ballistic gel, turkey what ever you want to test it on
Click to expand...
And, there is more to terminal lethality than penetration. Check out some scientific studies that were done over the years that weren't propaganda from $$$$ driven companies.
 
scn said:
Major obfuscation, Wes, that has little to nothing to do in regards to the post that I responded to. I highly suspect in a former life you must have been a politician.

What I commented on had nothing to do with the merits of 20 ga versus 12 as far as weight, recoil, etc. It was a simple statement you made that the pixie 20 ga loads SURPASS a 12 ga. lead load.

I have consumed enough of the pixie-lade to buy in that the magic death ray shot makes a 20 ga shotgun pretty much EQUAL to the 12 ga. that I carried for many years. My 12 ga. didn't leave the gun safe last year, and, unless I get nostalgic, it probably won't be out this April. Carrying a lighter gun up and down those Stewart Co ridges is easier on an old man.

But, in a former life, I spend enough time down the rabbit hole dealing with scientific studies on terminal ballistics to have a very firm opinion that the 20 ga pixie loads do not SURPASS a 12 ga. lead load. The studies I delved into were not manufacturer, $$$$ driven propaganda from companies making mega dollars with the China imported miracle shot. The level of propaganda from some of these companies reminds me a lot of the folks trying to tell me that if I don't ditch my F250 for an EV that we all will die.

So, there isn't enough pixie-lade out there for me to buy into your theory. But, I will be happy in a few weeks to hook up a tow strap to my dinosaur truck and pull your EV out of the mud.

JK, and have a great evening.
Click to expand...
20 ga TSS absolutely blow 12 gauge lead loads out of the water..... I have 410s loaded with #9 tss that will pattern as good as any 12 gauge 3.5 #4 shot And kill just as far.
 
scn said:
Without a doubt. And, it has been REALLY stuck on multiple occasions over the last 20 yrs. Thank you for the heads up as I was considering heading over there this week.
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I would be afraid to try it (in your heavy truck) before this weekend. And you probably should wait until we have both tractors on standby 😆 Seriously, I turned around before getting to camp, afraid I was going to get stuck myself. Log truck were sliding off the roads. They've rutted out some formerly good gravel roads to where an old Willis jeep would struggle to get through.
 
scn said:
And, there is more to terminal lethality than penetration. Check out some scientific studies that were done over the years that weren't propaganda from $$$$ driven companies.
Click to expand...
We can shoot a piece of tin at 50 yards and see what happens and then line them up on the patterning board. I was loading this stuff before there where any "companies" or "propaganda" so that didnt influence my opinion any. Sounds like your opinion is solely influenced by what someone else has written or published withouat any real world experience to amount to anything
I've been shooting them side by side for the the better part of 7 years now.
 
TITANSFAN2104 said:
We can shoot a piece of tin at 50 yards and see what happens and then line them up on the patterning board. I was loading this stuff before there where any "companies" or "propaganda" so that didnt influence my opinion any. Sounds like your opinion is solely influenced by what someone else has written or published withouat any real world experience to amount to anything
I've been shooting them side by side for the the better part of 7 years now.
Click to expand...
Actually, there was a ton of real world experience. It just wasn't from a $$$$ driven source?

What EV are you driving?
 
scn said:
And, there is more to terminal lethality than penetration. Check out some scientific studies that were done over the years that weren't propaganda from $$$$ driven companies.
Click to expand...
My studies arent money driven either, lead doesnt hold a candle to tss, and it takes penetration to brake bones and pattern density to mush heads. You can blow smoke all you want but i have eyes and can see for my self
 
scn said:
LOL

Believe what you want. The companies advertise that they will kill at 90 yds, so have at it.
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410 at lasered 40 yards. Like I've said take that 12 gauge #4 and shoot it at 40 . Unless you have a special gun, that 410 will be right there with it pattern wise and kill at 50. It's not a question "if" it will. It's a known fact at this point and not a fluke. Most people load 9.5 or #10s in 410 shells. This load is #9 @ around 1100fps
 

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TITANSFAN2104 said:
410 at lasered 40 yards. Like I've said take that 12 gauge #4 and shoot it at 40 . Unless you have a special gun, that 410 will be right there with it pattern wise and kill at 50. It's not a question "if" it will. It's a known fact at this point and not a fluke. Most people load 9.5 or #10s in 410 shells. This load is #9 @ around 1100fps
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There is zero doubt that the TSS makes for great loads. I am sitting here looking at 8-10 boxes sitting on a bookshelf across from my computer. I will be loaded up with it in April if I am blessed with another turkey season.

However, some of the hype is preposterous.
 
scn said:
Actually, there was a ton of real world experience. It just wasn't from a $$$$ driven source?

What EV are you driving?
Click to expand...

Like i said where was that money driven source in 2016/17... Very few even knew anything about tss It was ALL handloads until APEX formed and by that point my handloads had already killed 30+ birds. I got all my recipes from Hal and Tommy and I can assure you they wasnt throwing money at advertising.
 

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