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Are heavily hunted mature bucks with big racks that survive just lucky?

I don't know what to think. The place I hunt is a cattle farm. The guy that owns the cattle doesn't hunt. I run a trail camera over a salt block on the only part of the farm the cattle are not on. He's on the farm every other day or so checking the cattle, fixing fences and in the fall he's there more when he starts feeding hay. I believe he sees every deer including the most mature bucks pretty regularly. I talk to him every day or two and he tells me about what he's seen. What he has told me has helped me kill a few of the best bucks that I've got. I asked him once if he could have killed any of the mature bucks if he had a gun with him. He said he could have killed all of them if he wanted to if it wasn't for the fact that he couldn't hit the side of the barn with a gun. He leaves the tractor there year round. He's always telling me that I need to just ride around on it instead of climbing trees. So I don't know how smart an old buck is if he could kill them off his tractor. I wonder though if a man killed a few that way if they would suddenly all disappear when they heard a tractor start up?
That's how it is at my place. I see them everyday, they see me everyday. They don't see me as a threat because I'm not one. I wouldn't shoot one unless I was actually out hunting. I guess they are somewhat aware of that. Biggest bucks I've ever seen are when I was just out working. Never killed one like that myself.
 
I'd say a little bit is luck but most of it is smarts.

Think about it, they are constantly outrunning and evading natural and human predators 24/7. The weak and dumb ones simply don't survive while the strong and smart ones gain more experience and wisdom.

This might be silly, but the Bambi book (totally different than the movie) actually is pretty spot on in it's portrayal of older bucks. Older bucks tend to find more secluded and hard to reach places that often, don't see much human pressure. Older deer also learn from experience and from watching other deer, how to identify what is and what isn't a threat such as a farmer on a tractor or a hunter in a blind. These bucks also might just be more reclusive or observant in nature and that allows them to survive longer. Obviously, they eventually make a mistake and end up as someone's lunch but I truly don't think they are as dumb as people think. Except around cars maybe 🤣
 
After reading some of these posts we really can't put a farmer doing regular chores and killing a good buck and a hunter killing a good buck in the same category. The farmer isn't regarded as a threat but the hunter most certainly is . So I'd have to say the farmer/hunter is just lucky where as the hunter has to do some little things associated with hunting the buck .
 
I'm very impressed with the insight I'm reading about here. There are some very intuitive conclusions made and I think are definitely hitting on the truth of the matter. It's obvious our caveman predator brains are trying to get into the mind of a mature buck!

I'd like to talk about a giant mature buck that several of us had hunted hard for a few years who died of old age. No one even saw him other than on game cameras. He died of old age at 6.5. See video attached.

Our efforts to kill this buck probably helped him survive. We put out cameras, spent hundreds of hours on stands, snuck in with favorable winds, even parked down the road to throw him off. We finally got one daytime picture of him during hunting season in his last year of life. We never saw him again or found any remains. Was he just lucky? Did luck play any part of his survival? I believe the answer is NO!

This is how I think this 6.5 year old 150" giant 10 point survived and died of seemingly natural causes avoiding all our best efforts to kill him.

Some of these facts I'm only surmising and some we didn't figure out until the last year or two of his life.

He bedded near a road and in a small block of timber protected from hunting. This was only a few hundred yards from where we parked 98% of the time. Thus, he patterned us very well. Had we figured this sooner, we probably could have killed him. This area was a good mile from where we usually got his picture. Due to the times of night, we figured he lived off property. But I believed he just knew where he was hunted and acted accordingly. Big mature bucks need a place of safety cover and he found it. That's their instinct and not luck.

The harder we hunted him, the easier it was for him to pattern us. You only have so many chits on a stand to kill him. After one or two, that's it. Gotta move!

Older bucks have better survival skills because they use their instincts to learn what's dangerous and avoid those by staying away in daylight or by hearing things like truck doors or seeing headlights coming down a road. They smell deer stands and see cameras. They smell where a hunter walked even days later. They will make mistakes to breed. But, most of us can't hunt every daylight hour and often don't know enough about the buck's movements in daylight to know how to hunt him effectively. If you knew where to sit on which wind and the best day to hunt, you could probably kill him in one or two hunts. That's not luck but just lack of knowledge.

This effective pattering of mature bucks will also work against us because we must put cameras out and boots on the ground. Somehow, I think we can use this knowledge to find that crack in his defense system to kill him. I wish I could do this better. But, he is so much more aware of his home range and where and how to avoid danger than I am in knowing how I'm in hiding my whereabouts.

I'm middle of the pack where I hunt on mature bucks so take my advice with a grain of salt.
I'll conclude with this. If time and chance (luck or random chance) were the primary deciding factor then the those that spent the most hours on stand would always kill the best buck.
 

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IMO: i think it's a combination of luck and personality. Watching animals over the years of all types, you come to see, like humans, tgey aall have unique personalities. I think the bucks that survive have unique personalities. Lazy, loners, more nocturnal than others, probably cautious. These personality traits just happen to lend themselves to o surviving. Just my opinion.
 
It sets up for an awesome thread.

You killed a big old buck this year on heavily hunted land. I want to hear your perspective!

I don't think deer are super smart. They will run in front of cars on the highway for a hot piece of tail. They make mistakes. It's on us to use our biggest advantage our brain to capitalize on them. Deer have excellent survival instincts and the older bucks have the best instincts because we are all after that old big racked buck.

I'm on public. Im fluid. I'm constantly moving changing and adapting. The deer are also moving with pressure and preferred foods available. (I am also pressure! I can't act like every time I step into their world I am impacting it) It's my job to find where the deer want to be and when they want to be there. We as hunters try to hard to draw deer into areas they don't want to be. I want to Slip in and ambush them and make the very most out of the first time I go in.

The rules constantly change, the landscape changes and hunting pressure changes. Good and great spots often change by the week. Right place right time is a big factor. If you sit the same 3 spots all season long you are going to get a few good hunts per season but it won't last and you are limiting yourself.

Deer need two primary things right now! They need security and groceries. They don't know distances from roads, road noises, too much water, too thick. They glide right through the stuff. If they have both together they will be on their feet and moving throughout the day.

I think there are pockets that deer move into that hunters can't get to without the deer knowing it first. And honestly, humans just flat out don't and can't get to them. It's too wet, too deep, too far to walk with waders stand gear and weapon. Right now, there's too much seasonal water and the swamps in west TN are a safe haven this time of year, if the bucks needed it. The big old buck might have a SAFE private land spot near a corn feeder where hunters aren't currently hunting. Hes likely bedded in a way to see the ole hunter/farmer unlock the gate and drive in. He knows when it's safe to step out and when he needs to sit tight till after dark and the truck leaves.

Now another twist. It depends on the food!!! During late season the deer need the groceries to survive. There is a lot more hunting pressure now on public lands than on private lands. Duck hunters push bucks out of some swamps and they stack in others where they are safe if there is enough preferred food. If not the deer might migrate to the private ag where a higher nutritional source of food is available.

Most deer and big mature bucks included are social creatures. (Most) Never all, cause they are quite individualistic. The ones I have seen usually have other deer nearby or in the general vicinity.

They watch other deer alert to danger and the older bucks are the first ones to drop their head and tuck their tail and slip out of the area. They typically have a very good escape plan, when bedded.

Big bucks have their own unique quirks that have kept them alive. I find deer using late season food sources like red oak acorns and green briar on public. This year, it's looking more vacant than years past. Bad acorn crop? who knows, I just mark it off my list of areas that I'm going to try this year.

Also currently everything is underwater here, it's Kneedeep swamps. This will also change things. They have no problem walking and moving through water. They will move through it and shake off like a dog no problem. One thing I've never seen though is a deer bobbing for acorns! They have a hard time feeding on submerged acorns and deer don't bed down in water. So they will need at least a bit of high ground to bed down on and some good forage.

If they have soy beans or corn or better browse on a private property ag field and aren't being shot they would likely choose that.

Anyway, A lot of that is my opinion of things. I want to here your take on things fairchaser.
I agree with everything you said Swampbadger!
 
The amount of deer I see of a tractor through the year is quite astonishing.
That's a fact except this year for me. Most yrs I see some good ones on the tractor . This yr I never did nor did I get any good pics on trail cams . Here's a couple from last year. 30FFAF6A-5F17-4E90-A591-B8436FEEA164.webp1F9FEDF6-8FDC-4AEF-A6A5-FEFFA0373DD8.webp
 
Top end 2.5 and 3.5yos are lucky to survive. Not many hunters going to pass up a 120in 2.5yo or 140in 3.5yo

Once they hit 4.5, it's not as much luck, but their survival skills that keep them alive to 5.5.
 
I think most old bucks get big either because they are smaller antlered than their peers or else they're lucky to grow up in an area where the hunters want to see bucks get old. I've let many great big 2yr and 3yr olds pass only to never see them again. That likely means somebody a couple miles away killed the buck of their life. I've also been that guy so it all seems fair, part of the game. There are also times I've killed 115" 5yr old bucks that nobody has ever even shot at because they didn't have big antlers.

That brings up a point often tiptoed around, which is that well managed habitat on a property with strict hunting rules get a lion's share of big mature bucks because those bucks take refuge in those properties. Hunters fortunate enough to hunt those properties have significantly higher odds at killing a buck like that. I'm not saying it can't be done on public or unmanaged private. It can. But there is a difference in odds.
 
After reading some of these posts we really can't put a farmer doing regular chores and killing a good buck and a hunter killing a good buck in the same category. The farmer isn't regarded as a threat but the hunter most certainly is . So I'd have to say the farmer/hunter is just lucky where as the hunter has to do some little things associated with hunting the buck .
You may be right. I've thought about it for a while. Maybe it's not just luck with the farmer. I'm beginning to wonder if it's just that they spend a lot of time where the deer are.
 
I think most old bucks get big either because they are smaller antlered than their peers or else they're lucky to grow up in an area where the hunters want to see bucks get old. I've let many great big 2yr and 3yr olds pass only to never see them again. That likely means somebody a couple miles away killed the buck of their life. I've also been that guy so it all seems fair, part of the game. There are also times I've killed 115" 5yr old bucks that nobody has ever even shot at because they didn't have big antlers.

That brings up a point often tiptoed around, which is that well managed habitat on a property with strict hunting rules get a lion's share of big mature bucks because those bucks take refuge in those properties. Hunters fortunate enough to hunt those properties have significantly higher odds at killing a buck like that. I'm not saying it can't be done on public or unmanaged private. It can. But there is a difference in odds.
Ski you are right! Ames used to be that property before CWD. Age and antler restrictions allowed some giants to reach full potential. In 2016, the last good year, there were 10 bucks taken over 140 and 20 -25 other bucks 125 or larger. The odds are definitely better!
 
I killed a 5.5 year old buck last year on public in a saddle that had a thicket on one side of it. I always had to ride a fourwheeler in 2-3 miles and climb a bluff to get there. The saddle was attached to a ridge that went further up the mountain where an old road was.

The day before I killed it, I walked to the old road and saw a bunch of fresh buck sign. The deer I killed moved 15 minutes after a wind shift.

What I didn't know is another hunter had walked down the upper road that morning, and was sitting 200 yards from me below a ridge.

I think that deer lived on that road, and it served as a kind of thermal hub, where the ridge and saddle came together. I think when the wind shifted, he moved bedding spots down the road, and smelled the other hunters ground scent. That caused him to come down the ridge and cross the saddle. I think he was headed to the thicket to bed because he "felt" pressure.
 
That's a fact except this year for me. Most yrs I see some good ones on the tractor . This yr I never did nor did I get any good pics on trail cams . Here's a couple from last year. View attachment 259459View attachment 259460
Same here this year. The farmer never saw a big antlered buck and I never got a picture of one either. I killed two good eight points last year so I'm not complaining. I usually just kill a good buck every two or three years here. I did get a picture of a buck that I thought was 31/2 but was pretty small antler wise.
 
You may be right. I've thought about it for a while. Maybe it's not just luck with the farmer. I'm beginning to wonder if it's just that they spend a lot of time where the deer are.
That's true....if the farmer hunts as well he definitely has a better chance to kill a mature buck . They pay little attention to him because he's always there doing his normal routine .
 
I'm very impressed with the insight I'm reading about here. There are some very intuitive conclusions made and I think are definitely hitting on the truth of the matter. It's obvious our caveman predator brains are trying to get into the mind of a mature buck!

I'd like to talk about a giant mature buck that several of us had hunted hard for a few years who died of old age. No one even saw him other than on game cameras. He died of old age at 6.5. See video attached.

Our efforts to kill this buck probably helped him survive. We put out cameras, spent hundreds of hours on stands, snuck in with favorable winds, even parked down the road to throw him off. We finally got one daytime picture of him during hunting season in his last year of life. We never saw him again or found any remains. Was he just lucky? Did luck play any part of his survival? I believe the answer is NO!

This is how I think this 6.5 year old 150" giant 10 point survived and died of seemingly natural causes avoiding all our best efforts to kill him.

Some of these facts I'm only surmising and some we didn't figure out until the last year or two of his life.

He bedded near a road and in a small block of timber protected from hunting. This was only a few hundred yards from where we parked 98% of the time. Thus, he patterned us very well. Had we figured this sooner, we probably could have killed him. This area was a good mile from where we usually got his picture. Due to the times of night, we figured he lived off property. But I believed he just knew where he was hunted and acted accordingly. Big mature bucks need a place of safety cover and he found it. That's their instinct and not luck.

The harder we hunted him, the easier it was for him to pattern us. You only have so many chits on a stand to kill him. After one or two, that's it. Gotta move!

Older bucks have better survival skills because they use their instincts to learn what's dangerous and avoid those by staying away in daylight or by hearing things like truck doors or seeing headlights coming down a road. They smell deer stands and see cameras. They smell where a hunter walked even days later. They will make mistakes to breed. But, most of us can't hunt every daylight hour and often don't know enough about the buck's movements in daylight to know how to hunt him effectively. If you knew where to sit on which wind and the best day to hunt, you could probably kill him in one or two hunts. That's not luck but just lack of knowledge.

This effective pattering of mature bucks will also work against us because we must put cameras out and boots on the ground. Somehow, I think we can use this knowledge to find that crack in his defense system to kill him. I wish I could do this better. But, he is so much more aware of his home range and where and how to avoid danger than I am in knowing how I'm in hiding my whereabouts.

I'm middle of the pack where I hunt on mature bucks so take my advice with a grain of salt.
I'll conclude with this. If time and chance (luck or random chance) were the primary deciding factor then the those that spent the most hours on stand would always kill the best buck.
Good post !
 
I've often wondered if some big antlered deer are just weird…….I would think deer may be like humans and have different personalities. Some are social and outgoing while others are reclusive and stay to themselves. Are all 5.5 yo bucks reclusive and nocturnal, or does it take the weird ones to make it that long?

I think their survival is made up of several factors including skill and luck. However, I do think each one is killable at some point, somewhere. I often wonder where some bucks actually live that just pass by ever so often at night.
 
I've often wondered if some big antlered deer are just weird…….I would think deer may be like humans and have different personalities. Some are social and outgoing while others are reclusive and stay to themselves. Are all 5.5 yo bucks reclusive and nocturnal, or does it take the weird ones to make it that long?

I think their survival is made up of several factors including skill and luck. However, I do think each one is killable at some point, somewhere. I often wonder where some bucks actually live that just pass by ever so often at night.
I agree that bucks have various personalities. Some are loners, some are social, you got hiders and runners. Some will move around more freely in daylight and others seemingly nocturnal. They are all survivors and that ability will improve with age. They are all killable if you can find where they are vulnerable. I believe that they must have some security cover. Find that cover and learn how to hunt it effectively.
 

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