Are heavily hunted mature bucks with big racks that survive just lucky?

[Snake]

Most places I hunt here in SC don't even have what people call a monster buck. It's hard to kill monsters that are not there

So true..... not only where you hunt but in all facets of life in the deer hunting world. I hear all the time about some saying I just can't kill a big mature buck !! Most can't because they are hunting in an area that don't have the recipe for them and will never have !!

By saying that I actually mean and have been proven wrong about " all " the recipes for a big mature buck body/antler wise . Every once in a blue moon a " giant " will be killed where there was no way a buck of that caliber could be killed where he was killed . So you have that and some unexpecting hunter will make headlines .

By recipe I mean the ingredients that it takes for a buck to reach the status of a giant. Age , genetics, food , cover etc . Most don't have all of these ingredients and may not have any so their chances of killing one is slim to none . Some hunters think if they don't kill young bucks that recipe alone will ensure them of a trophy one day . That's a great start for sure and by allowing bucks to age IMO is the most important factor but it's not a guarantee that you'll kill a " giant " but should kill really good bucks for applying this ingredient . Other ingredients for " giants " are almost equally important, genetics, nutrition, enough property that the hunting pressure is low , etc , etc .

 

[Ski]

Are all 5.5 yo bucks reclusive and nocturnal, or does it take the weird ones to make it that long?

Not to be too anthropomorphic but I liken mature bucks to old men. They're tired, arthritic, in constant pain, stiff, have lost much hearing and sight, and generally have incredibly low tolerance for extended social pressure. So they hole up alone where they're not likely to be bothered or forced to move, and they only get up when they need to eat then right back to the recliner they go.

During rut, if they rut, they have a gigantic loop mapped out out where they already know from experience there are going to be hot does at specific times. He slowly but surely covers that loop, not chasing young does but rather breeding their mother's and grandmothers that are expecting him.

I could be entirely wrong about that but it's the only way I've been able to make sense of old buck behavior. Most of the biggest oldest bucks I've killed were expected because they had been through before around the same time. Not not before and not after, but inside a very tight window of days. The first buck i killed this season was a perfect example. Years of pics during early November only. He came out tending an old doe and was stiff legged and slow. He could barely run. When butchering I found his right front ACL was gone and knee was calcified. He came out around other deer only to breed. Otherwise he stayed laid up alone somewhere.

 

[Ski]

Some hunters think if they don't kill young bucks that recipe alone will ensure them of a trophy one day . That's a great start for sure and by allowing bucks to age IMO is the most important factor but it's not a guarantee that you'll kill a " giant " but should kill really good bucks for applying this ingredient .

That's accurate. Letting them age does not guarantee big antlers but it's the only way to know if they'll get big antlers. I don't mind so much. A 5yr+ buck is exciting to me regardless of rack size. Around here the cap is about 120", although I've seen a couple bigger. I've yet to see what I thought would reach 130". So if giants was all I was after I'd never kill anything. Instead I challenge myself to the oldest regardless of rack size.

My Ohio place on the other hand can produce some legit world class giants. And for there that's what I strive for because it's actually plausible. When in Rome .....

 

[themanpcl]

I've been thinking, which is dangerous, if big ole bucks who are hunted hard just lucky or are they skilled beyond most of our ability to kill them?

I know it's got to be some of both but how much? Love to hear your perspectives. I have an opinion but love to hear yours.

IMHO, bucks that get to 5+ have developed instincts and rituals that keep them alive. I think the "luck" happens before 5 yrs old by avoiding the bullet...

 

[BigAl]

They don't have to be real smart to be smarter than me. But they occasionally get unlucky in my presence.

 

[xatxay]

I am a believer in Stretch's 4P theory of how big bucks get killed…

Please elaborate. I'm ignorant as to Stretch's theory.
This thread is awesome.

 

[CBU93]

Please elaborate. I'm ignorant as to Stretch's theory.
This thread is awesome.

Stretch's 4 P theory of how big bucks get killed:

Pressure: A hunter bumps a big buck and unwittingly runs him over another hunter

P*ssy: Bug bucks make mistakes during the rut

Poaching: Using illegal methods such as spotlighting

Peterbuilts: human encroachment on habitats is another way of saying this…every year I am amazed at how many big bucks are killed on the road…and by trains.

That is Stretch's 4 P theory as I recall it. RIP big fella…still have a hard time that him and Ruger are both gone to the big hunting lands n the sky.

 

[redblood]

I do think that the survivors are often lucky for another reason- the resident hunter they walk in front of is very very selective. I have had lots of mature bucks walk by that made the fatal but i didnt cash the check. And i know im not alone. Down the rd their is a company that leases a farm for its workers to hunt a few weeks a year and they are kind enough to share their kill photos. I see s lot of bucks- especially high end 3.5s and low end 4.5s-that inhave passed that get killed. Its part of it. But sometimes a deer luckiest moment, is who they happen to stroll in front of

 

[JJ3]

I believe it is a combination of survival skill of the deer (mature bucks are nocturnal except when they forget the time of day following the girls), skill but also patience on the hunters part, luck on the deers part, and getting lucky as hunter.

We hunt a 200+ acre lease that is 65% ag with most of the woods heavy cut about 8 years ago and too thick to hunt. Just 2 hunters hunting this lease. We've got about 8 stands up, but hunt 2 stands 70% of the time — we don't have the luxury of hunting a stand only 2 times in a year.

We will usually have a couple of mature bucks (4.5+) on cameras each year — almost always at night, but we almost always get a few pictures daytime — except for his year when only one of the mature bucks made an appearance just around legal on an afternoon I didn't hunt and instead spent it with my wife for her birthday……

There is skill on the hunters part knowing how to read sign and knowing where deer travel. There is patience on the hunters part letting deer walk by and not disturbing them — or figuring out what to do when legal arrives in the evening but you've got a dozen deer in front of you. We don't usually shoot does in the first half of the season, because those are our decoys — we are hoping that the mature deer locks in and follows one of them into the field or by our stand in the woods.

There is definitely luck involved hoping that you are in the right place at the right time, on the day that he forgets his survival skills at 9 am because he's locked in 50 yards behind a doe, just keeping her in sight. There is dedication and patience involved on the hunters part to have confidence that you are sitting in the right spot.

But the bucks survival skills eventually run out. If we have 4.5+ bucks that survived the season all the way to shed in March — we rarely pick those deer up in the following season. They either shift their range or meet their demise. When we pick up mature deer in the current season, they are usually bucks we didn't have in the previous year.

 

[Gravey]

The bigger deer I've killed have been during the rut so fall into the p category pu$$y that @CBU93 mentioned. I do think the older they get the smarter or at least more wary/nervous they get and therefore only move under darkness. That's why for me when it's on during the rut I do my best to get in the woods.

 

[7mmWSM]

Not to be too anthropomorphic but I liken mature bucks to old men. They're tired, arthritic, in constant pain, stiff, have lost much hearing and sight, and generally have incredibly low tolerance for extended social pressure. So they hole up alone where they're not likely to be bothered or forced to move, and they only get up when they need to eat then right back to the recliner they go.

During rut, if they rut, they have a gigantic loop mapped out out where they already know from experience there are going to be hot does at specific times. He slowly but surely covers that loop, not chasing young does but rather breeding their mother's and grandmothers that are expecting him.

I could be entirely wrong about that but it's the only way I've been able to make sense of old buck behavior. Most of the biggest oldest bucks I've killed were expected because they had been through before around the same time. Not not before and not after, but inside a very tight window of days. The first buck i killed this season was a perfect example. Years of pics during early November only. He came out tending an old doe and was stiff legged and slow. He could barely run. When butchering I found his right front ACL was gone and knee was calcified. He came out around other deer only to breed. Otherwise he stayed laid up alone somewhere.

I agree with what you're saying here. I also feel like an older buck is like an aging dog. His home range shrinks as he gets older and movement is limited as well.

 

[deerhunter10]

I do think that the survivors are often lucky for another reason- the resident hunter they walk in front of is very very selective. I have had lots of mature bucks walk by that made the fatal but i didnt cash the check. And i know im not alone. Down the rd their is a company that leases a farm for its workers to hunt a few weeks a year and they are kind enough to share their kill photos. I see s lot of bucks- especially high end 3.5s and low end 4.5s-that inhave passed that get killed. Its part of it. But sometimes a deer luckiest moment, is who they happen to stroll in front of

I agree with this. I like the 2 buck limit. But we have a lot of acres to hunt. I am very selective. Usually I have 2 or 3 deer I will shoot unless one surprises me that I didn't know of. Doesn't mean that any mature deer isn't a trophy just means I want a different one.

I still stand by my original statement and believe it's true 97 or 98 percent of the time. The true big deer killers if they don't kill the deer they are after it's generally their screw up.

 

[DoubleRidge]

I dont believe big mature bucks are lucky any more than I believe hunters who consistently kill big bucks are lucky.
Can a buck or a hunter catch a break from time to time...sure...but to consistently survive season after season takes more than just luck....and to kill big mature bucks consistently no doubt takes more than just luck.

Its been said before that luck is when preparation meets oppurtunity...makes sense...we as hunters must capitalize on the opportunities we encounter.

In other words "luck" isnt going to consistently overcome a series of bad choices.

 

[WTNBowHunter]

great thread....

the way i think about it is that its best to consider what is reasonable versus what is possible because the possibilities are endless. most reasonable conclusions that i can draw are that mature bucks have different personalities/tendencies which cause them to respond certain ways to pressure or food availability. one buck may slip over to a neighbors farm when he smells a hunters scent from a trail hes been walking on all summer now its october and he decides to move to stay alive. another buck may not alter his pattern much until the next time he smells that smell. food and cover availability change in the fall also which can make us think that a deer has been bumped when in actuality its food/cover that made them move and not necessarily a hunter mistake.
as i'm typing this i'm considering the reasonable explanations for a buck that i know is at least 5 because i've had two years of pictures and encounters (with a bow, just out of range) that i haven't been able to seal the deal. hope to run across someone's idea that i haven't considered yet as a reasonable explanation

 

[redblood]

I agree with this. I like the 2 buck limit. But we have a lot of acres to hunt. I am very selective. Usually I have 2 or 3 deer I will shoot unless one surprises me that I didn't know of. Doesn't mean that any mature deer isn't a trophy just means I want a different one.

I still stand by my original statement and believe it's true 97 or 98 percent of the time. The true big deer killers if they don't kill the deer they are after it's generally their screw up.

Heres an example. This is a rutted out 4.5 yr old buck named Larry. He is a regular. I could kill him virtually every afternoon feeding in my interior corn field. He comes well before daylight ends most days. I figure him around 130 gross. Is he smart? No. Is he lucky? Only because i value him more as a 5.5 yr old .

 

[WTNBowHunter]

However, I do think each one is killable at some point, somewhere.

agree 100%! the fun is trying to figure that out

 

[redblood]

I think one thing that needs clarification is what consituts mature. For me its 5.5 plus. For some its 4.5 and for some its 3.5. There is a big difference in behavior between a 3.5 and 5.5.

 

[TN Larry]

agree 100%! the fun is trying to figure that out

I was just sitting here thinking about this. The deer have nothing else to do than to survive. For most of us, we are on a limited schedule between work, school, church, etc. In places where there isn't a ton of hunting pressure in a ridge and hardwood environment, the deer has a chance to live. In places where it's flat and lots of ag/fields with pressure, there's a much higher chance of the deer not surviving.

I also often wonder the story behind a big mature buck. How many hunters have they got around? How many times have they been let walk by someone? I've wondered this a bunch on the biggest deer I've ever killed. I had never seen him before or had any pictures of him, but he strolled through while I was there. He had battle scars and often wonder his story. How many people did have pics of him and were hunting him? I know the final chapter and glad to know that but just wonder what he encountered through the years.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Heres an example. This is a rutted out 4.5 yr old buck named Larry. He is a regular. I could kill him virtually every afternoon feeding in my interior corn field. He comes well before daylight ends most days. I figure him around 130 gross. Is he smart? No. Is he lucky? Only because i value him more as a 5.5 yr old .

Oh theres always exceptions....like deer at cades cove that are conditioned to pressure or a lack of...but I'd say Larry is smart enough to know where he can go in the daylight and feed in a corn field....because in most areas a 130" buck will die with that type of behavior...or with a lack of being pressured Larry is conditioned to feed where he feels safe and theres no pressure.

 

[WTNBowHunter]

I think one thing that needs clarification is what consituts mature. For me its 5.5 plus. For some its 4.5 and for some its 3.5. There is a big difference in behavior between a 3.5 and 5.5.

good point. from the biologists that i subscribe to, they say 5.5 is when a buck has to ability to express its maximum antler growth potential. if i recall correctly, that number is 95%+ of their antler potential at 5.5. 85-90% at 4.5. 80-85% at 3.5. rough numbers going off memory, i'm sure its posted somewhere.

a recent youtube series that MSU Deer Labs did discussed buck harvest strategies. there are 8 videos that are between 10-15 minutes each. here is the first in that series: