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Benelli M2 20 Gauge with TSS vs. 12 ga with 5 shot
- Thread starter CAW
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TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Nice comparison.
Basically, a 20 ga loaded with #9 TSS
is a higher probability dead-turkey load than a 12 ga loaded with anything other than TSS.
Doesn't matter what the range.
Basically, a 20 ga loaded with #9 TSS
is a higher probability dead-turkey load than a 12 ga loaded with anything other than TSS.
Doesn't matter what the range.
TheLBLman":2fg6ge6a said:
Bull hockey.
TSS is great, but all it does is get the pellets up to a lead #5 level. A 12 gauge that patterns will put as many or more of those #5 shot in a turkey's head.
I love my 20 with the TSS, but am under no delusions that it will kill better or further than my 12 with my pet #5 lead loads. It is lighter to haul around, and that is about it.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Those 20-ga patterns with #9 TSS are denser than those #5 lead from the 12.scn":23z1sjf8 said:
By the way, I am absolutely not advocating long-range turkey shooting.
Just see the TSS as a more deadly load than lead.
I like the fact that a more open choke can be used with TSS (larger pattern)
making a complete miss less likely at close range.
#9 TSS ALSO adds TONS of flexibility and insurance over lead #5s if the hunter were to pull off target, which happens. If I knew I was going to pull (who knows that, but it happens), I would take the TSS #9s over lead anything to increase the likelihood that I get numerous pellets in the turkeys head/neck region, thus reduce the likelihood of crippling him or a clean miss with a tight choke and lead shot. Generally speaking, I will take hand loaded 1 5/8 ounce of TSS #9s over ANY commercial load I have ever shot out of my 12G. My experience with my 870 compact 20G, TSS #9s and a Carlson 0.575 choke has been nothing short of devastation, with an open enough pattern to coverup my mistakes, that are likely happening from time to time, without me noticing it, or paying the ultimate price (crippled turkey, or one flying off). The increased pattern footprint (500 evenly distributed pellets in a 20" circle at 40 yards) results in a dead turkey just about any way you dice it.scn":z6qvxjzw said:
I've consumed a bunch of Koolaid in my life, and have pretty much drunk it on this subject as well. I'm pretty good with the thought process that my 20 ga with #9 TSS is equal to my 12 ga. with copper plated lead. That is why I will hunt with it this year.
But, IMO, it is a stretch to try to say a TSS #9 pellet is equal to or better that a lead #5. Yes, it may penetrate the same. But, in actual killing ability, it is not equal. The wound channel on the #5 is significantly larger. After reading a bunch of info over the years from the leading experts in the country on ballistic gelatin tests and killing efficiency with handgun bullets, the consensus is that the size of the wound channel is extremely important in the ultimate kill.
Yes, TSS #9 has a bunch more pellets that #5 lead. But, if it takes 2-3 of those pellets to equal one lead #5, that advantage quickly goes away.
Equal, yes. Better? Still not buying it.
But, IMO, it is a stretch to try to say a TSS #9 pellet is equal to or better that a lead #5. Yes, it may penetrate the same. But, in actual killing ability, it is not equal. The wound channel on the #5 is significantly larger. After reading a bunch of info over the years from the leading experts in the country on ballistic gelatin tests and killing efficiency with handgun bullets, the consensus is that the size of the wound channel is extremely important in the ultimate kill.
Yes, TSS #9 has a bunch more pellets that #5 lead. But, if it takes 2-3 of those pellets to equal one lead #5, that advantage quickly goes away.
Equal, yes. Better? Still not buying it.
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Both of my 20g 870 youths with 1.5oz straight TSS #9's will put more pellets in the 10" and 20" circle than my 10g SP-10 with 2.5oz of Federal HW 7's (both of which far exceed pellet count and density of the 10g with lead #5's I've shot since the late 90's.
The TSS with straight 9's really are that dense. And penetration is just insane as well. Total game changer for sure.
The TSS with straight 9's really are that dense. And penetration is just insane as well. Total game changer for sure.
bloodtrailing
Well-Known Member
scn":3a1duopb said:
Wound channels kill deer not turkeys.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm pretty convinced per the tests I've seen that the TSS #9 (denser, smaller, less surface area, less friction and less drag) will out penetrate lead #5, and lead #4, especially as the distance increases, with FAR LESS recoil.scn":2s961526 said:
Southern Sportsman
Well-Known Member
bloodtrailing":3dkfs53q said:
This. Ballistics gel for handgun ammo versus penetration of pellets to be shot at turkeys is apples to oranges. No matter how small the wound channel or how minimal the terminal "shock," if you send a projectile through the relatively fragile skull or vertebre of a 20 lb bird, it will fall over dead. You dont need "knock down power" i.e. transfer of kinetic energy to kill a turkey. You just need a pellet to go through the head or spine. Small, high density tungsten pellets leaving a muzzle at 1000-1200 fps are really good at doing that. Just as good or better than lead 5s or 6s at the same velocity.
In other words, it does not take 2-3 TSS #9s to equal the effectiveness of one lead #5. So 588 TSS 9s (1 5/8oz load) really do have an advantage over 432 lead 5s (2 1/2oz load). Especially when you factor in that each TSS pellet has a better ballistic coefficient (perfectly spherical and less wind drag) than each lead pellet (some deformation when shot and more wind drag) and therefore hold together as a pattern better.
Give it time, scn. That koolaid gets better and better. It just seems counterintuitive at first so it takes time to get one's mind around it.
TN Larry
Well-Known Member
Andy S.":3n3ki8yh said:
This^^^^^
I had this same discussion with a buddy at work today. I will take my hand loaded shells in either my gun or my son's gun over any lead shell that I've ever shot through my 12 ga. My 12 shoots 3.5" #6 longbeards very well with lots of kills. Last year was our first year shooting TSS and the results are hard to believe. From shooting paper with 500 shots evenly distributed in a 20" circle to the performance on a turkey is simply amazing from a youth model 21" barrel gun. We killed 8 turkeys last year from 25 to one being a mistake and way past the limit of where we should be shooting at turkeys.
My son's 3rd turkey was 60 yards. I absolutely don't advocate shooting one that far and definitely not why we hunt but sometimes misjudgements happen. The bird was 40 yards when we first seen him and but was below us. I had to spin my son around to shoot.
At that time I thought the bird was paralleling us, but what I didn't realize until was stood up is the bird was slightly paralleling and walking away. I was too consumed with getting my son turned around without spooking the bird and didn't realize he was getting a little further away after each step. It may have been a lucky shot bit worked well. Either way, all kills showed just unreal damage. His first turkey was probably y 30 to 35 yards and had more blood than any turkey I've ever seen.
I don't use TSS to shoot long range and most of the time can't see much past 40 yards once the woods green up as we hunt woods and want them close, gobbling to the gun. I use them because of the terrain we hunt allowing me to carry a smaller gun with leas recoil. I still carry both guns a lot so the lighter the better in steep terrain. After having back issues and finding out today that I have two bulged discs in my neck, the light recoil matters.
I guess you should pass me another round of Kool-Aid because I'm in and will pick the 20 with TSS any day over my 12 with any lead shell that shoots lights out. JMO based on one year's experience.
I'd rather have a 20 with tss than anything with lead.
And yes tss is heavier so yes it does drop more noticeable
scn":2zydsvga said:
I don't disagree with your statements, but the turkeys I've seen killed with TSS #9 have dropped like a rock. The proof is in the pudding.
TNReb":16yyu15x said:
I've killed a pile of turkeys over the years with a 12 gauge that have dropped in their tracks, DRT, as well. These 20's aren't some kind of magical ray gun. They are cute little guns that are more fun to haul around that don't put you at a disadvantage (compared with a 12 and lead) with the TSS. Nothing more.
Different strokes for different folks. I see zero reason to use a 12g with lead. Heavier, more recoil, and the same end result - a clean kill.scn":v010slzi said:
I keep hearing more recoil. I must have failed my college physics. If you shoot 1 5/8 oz of ANY shot at 1250 fps, the recoil is going to be the same whether it is shot from a 20 ga or a 12 ga. The felt recoil will be more in the lighter gun (20 ga) with the same type of action.
Strong koolaid.
Strong koolaid.
Southern Sportsman
Well-Known Member
scn":m43tyeyi said:
But nobody shoots 1 5/8 oz in a 12 gauge, especially with lead. 1 5/8oz out of a 20 is generally going to kick less than 2 or 2 1/4 oz out of a 12. But, aside from those with injuries, etc, nobody picks a turkey load based on recoil anyway.
Southern Sportsman":25s6g6xf said:
My favorite 12 ga load has always been 1 3/4 oz. Thus, 1/8 oz heavier payload. It is a little higher velocity load, which does up the recoil. But, with a heavier gun, it is pretty much a wash with my 20. The 20 ga. has some advantages, but recoil certainly isn't a major one for me.
TN Larry
Well-Known Member
My felt recoil while shooting at a turkey is a non issue but still there and something I must think about after injuries. It will kick your teeth in though shooting at a target vs. the 20. I am shooting more shot though in it.
I guess it's hard to say that the 20 is better or superior to the 12 but definitely not under gunned when compared to the 12 with many advantages including recoil for me. I see no reason to ever shoot the 12 again and working on slowly acquiring enough for a lifetime supply.
Now pass that Kool aid.... :rotf:
We really need turkey season to start.
I guess it's hard to say that the 20 is better or superior to the 12 but definitely not under gunned when compared to the 12 with many advantages including recoil for me. I see no reason to ever shoot the 12 again and working on slowly acquiring enough for a lifetime supply.
Now pass that Kool aid.... :rotf:
We really need turkey season to start.
