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Big changes from the meeting today

Sasquatch Boogie Outdoors said:
Do you reckon turkeys "gravel" on fertilizer and it kills them? Seems like there are some well read folks on here so thought I'd ask.
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No.
Fertilizer grains are too small to be terribly interesting to a turkey. The P and K are minerals that must break down / dissolve and it would take a lot to even have the potential of causing a problem. N absorbs moisture and dissolves pretty quick but if a bird picked up a few pieces it would likely not continue as it would be irritating to the mouth and esophagus. I made compost ( thousands of tons ) for years and have looked for sources for manure everywhere. Turkeys like horses have a poor conversion rate and their poop is not fuel for composting ( almost no nitrogen) This means that whatever they consume gets deposited pretty quickly and is low in key microbials and nitrogen. So if they did ingest a couple mouthfuls of fertilizer they would likely develop the squirts and it would be gone same day.
 
megalomaniac said:
That being said, it just doesn't make much sense to take half the seasons gobbler kill BEFORE hens have been bred in TN.

(Average nest initiation statewide in TN is week of May 10th. Back up 8 to 10 days before that for breeding)
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A couple things.
  • That May 10th date you posted includes RENESTING attempts as well! Initial nest initiation is far earlier than May 10th.
  • TWRA found 2020 nesting to be delayed by about a week from average. It is not uncommon in turkey to have peak nesting swing a week in either direction from the long term average. Mother nature plays a role (early/late springs, etc.)
  • That data is based on backdating observational data. Their GPS'd hen data below is more accuarte.
Here is recently published data from TWRA's big study :

  • 78% of adult hens are initiating nests
  • A whopping 40% are even renesting
  • Median incubation date of April 27th

WAS2hXQ.png

g2R6vIY.png
 
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tickweed said:
I've turkey hunted since the early seventies, many states, volunteered 32 yrs with the NWTF. I remember when we had no birds at all to speak of other than Anderson tully, LBL. Then l watched them slowly expand. Grow. The old sport of Turkey hunting is long gone. Better shells, longer kill ranges, decoys. Fanning. Reaping. Better camo. Pop up blinds. I never thought Tn. Should have had a four bird, six week long, all day season. Look at Missouri, at one time one of the top states, 2 weeks, 2 birds. 1pm cut off. Not anymore. I applaud TWRA for finally making a move, moving the starting date later, reducing the limit. I wish they would have left the closing date as was. I will say this, l had a lease in Dickson county years ago. A dairy farm, nothing to hear 15 gobblers a morning. Nothing to drive over county, see stutters in every field. Within one yr we went from seeing groups of 300 in the fall, to hardly any. Every since, seems all southern states populations are falling. Predation is a big factor, but that's not what had happened in such a short span. There is way more happing than predators, limits, fanning. All of these factors hurt, but something really knocked the populations back , way to fast. I still feel disease is all it could be, to reduce populations that fast. And they havent recovered, add the above factors, it just really hurts.
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This is why TWRA needs to Manage wildlife populations from year to year, even mid season if need be. Not just set seasons and leave it for the year or even years at a time. Sometimes, stuff happens and if they need to change the season, bag limits etc. they just need to do it even if it pisses people off. Heck, folks been begging for changes in the turkey seasons and it has still pissed people off. In my opinion, hunters getting mad should not be much of a consideration when it comes to game management.
 
Popcorn said:
No.
Fertilizer grains are too small to be terribly interesting to a turkey. The P and K are minerals that must break down / dissolve and it would take a lot to even have the potential of causing a problem. N absorbs moisture and dissolves pretty quick but if a bird picked up a few pieces it would likely not continue as it would be irritating to the mouth and esophagus. I made compost ( thousands of tons ) for years and have looked for sources for manure everywhere. Turkeys like horses have a poor conversion rate and their poop is not fuel for composting ( almost no nitrogen) This means that whatever they consume gets deposited pretty quickly and is low in key microbials and nitrogen. So if they did ingest a couple mouthfuls of fertilizer they would likely develop the squirts and it would be gone same day.
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I feel like I stayed at a Holiday inn Express last night! I dont know if your correct or not but you sure sound like you know your stuff so I'm going with it...I fee lb smarter after talking to smart people. 👨‍🎓
 
th88 said:
A couple things.
  • That May 10th date you posted includes RENESTING attempts as well! Initial nest initiation is far earlier than May 10th.
  • TWRA found 2020 nesting to be delayed by about a week from average. It is not uncommon in turkey to have peak nesting swing a week in either direction from the long term average. Mother nature plays a role (early/late springs, etc.)
  • That data is based on backdating observational data. Their GPS'd hen data below is more accuarte.
Here is recently published data from TWRA's big study :

  • 78% of adult hens are initiating nests
  • A whopping 40% are even renesting
  • Median incubation date of April 27th

WAS2hXQ.png

g2R6vIY.png
Click to expand...
Wow! That's some awesome stuff! Ty for posting!

A few thing that jump out at me... average clutch size is sig smaller than I would have expected. I've always seen 10 to 14 eggs in the nest on a setting hen.

Average nest incubation start was the same between adults and jennies
This makes no sense compared to prior studies or to what I've seen in the field. Would love to dive deeper on that.

40% renest rate for adult hens is actually worse than many prior studies and what I would have thought. I was expecting 60% on the adults... or 40% if you included jennies with the hens. Was this just hen who were already setting or does it include hens who lost their clutch prior to initial setting as well? Hens that lose their nest during egg laying but prior to setting should renest well over 80%.
 
megalomaniac said:
the real question is how bad would Arkansas be now if they had NOT implemented any changes a few years ago.
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I can tell u how bad Arkansas game and fish let it get. Look at our harvest. I hunted almost every day of season. I heard 3 different gobblers. 2 mite been jakes. The most one of them gobble was 3 times and shut up. I seen 5 jakes the last day of season . I never seen 1 hen. Arkansas should have cut fall season yrs before they did. And went to NO beared hens. Yrs before they did. Cut the limit down too one gobbler. Went to no jakes yrs before they did. People mite not have liked it. We mite a had more turkeys if they would have. They was burning nesting areas during turkey season. Our season opened 2 weeks late. I know they got some turkey nest in the fire's.
 
timberjack86 said:
Does the year round trapping apply to public land? I can't find anything about it in the video. I would assume it does being all the other changes do
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I can't find where they say it anywhere either. I read a statement that said they where increasing the "hunting season" on them and doubling the limit but it didn't say anything about trapping seasons.
 
Planking said:
I can't find where they say it anywhere either. I read a statement that said they where increasing the "hunting season" on them and doubling the limit but it didn't say anything about trapping seasons.
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Yea, I don't think it's ACTUALLY year round. I think the combination of "hunting season" and the trapping of them makes it pretty close to year round but I still think there's a break in there. One commissioner commented that he WAS going to suggest year round but didn't actually do it. They doubled the daily limit during "hunting season" for them.
 
My gosh I mean with how a lot of y'all are for the decrease in limit, I'll bet y'all will be happy when it goes down to one a year. Honestly, would celebrate when the close it off all together…just saying.
 
Can anyone answer this question. I thought the benefit of opening two weeks later was the theory that hens would be bred . I have seen numerous people say on here if they move it back two weeks there is no need to reduce the limit? Why did they do both? TN has went from 5 birds , 4 plus a bonus bird, to 3 birds total, now to two birds total. I am going to email my commission rep to get his input on the matter because they all voted for it. I am sure he will have a detailed explanation as to why he voted the way he did and may have more insight on the matter. I was just hoping maybe someone could clear it up on here , or maybe I misunderstood the whole theory and it requires both. I would have thought they at least bring back the bonus bird on a drawn quota hunt with a two bird limit. I never have understood why they took that to begin with. Those areas are only hunted a few days a year with a quota limit of hunters., They have zero effect on the statewide population of turkey as they are controlled hunts.
 
Gobble4me757 said:
My gosh I mean with how a lot of y'all are for the decrease in limit, I'll bet y'all will be happy when it goes down to one a year. Honestly, would celebrate when the close it off all together…just saying.
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If shutting it down assured the future of the species with a huntable population in the future was required then color me a yes!
 
deerfever said:
Might as well be for me, LOL I can't even sleep , eat or think properly during turkey season! At least now my son can go more as school will be out for summer before season closes and that's a fact. I never thought about that til just now.
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I hear ya, I enjoy turkey just as much as the next guy.
 
deerfever said:
Can anyone answer this question. I thought the benefit of opening two weeks later was the theory that hens would be bred . I have seen numerous people say on here if they move it back two weeks there is no need to reduce the limit? Why did they do both? TN has went from 5 birds , 4 plus a bonus bird, to 3 birds total, now to two birds total. I am going to email my commission rep to get his input on the matter because they all voted for it. I am sure he will have a detailed explanation as to why he voted the way he did and may have more insight on the matter. I was just hoping maybe someone could clear it up on here , or maybe I misunderstood the whole theory and it requires both. I would have thought they at least bring back the bonus bird on a drawn quota hunt with a two bird limit. I never have understood why they took that to begin with. Those areas are only hunted a few days a year with a quota limit of hunters., They have zero effect on the statewide population of turkey as they are controlled hunts.
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Honestly I don't think the commissioners really know why they voted the way the did. You know how the saying goes "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". They tried to appease the loudest crowd with moving the season back and dropping the limit but keeping the same amount of hunting days. In all honesty I think moving the season back was the biggest goal and after seeing how many people actually limit out which isn't the majority, they decided to toss that in to "save a few" turkeys. I don't 3/4th of the commissioners even really discussed why they would vote one way or the other.
 
from a distance it seems to be most I see complaining about the changes are the same ones complaining about over crowded public land early season and not hearing any birds over the course of the season. Cant accommodate that crowd because even they are not sure what they really prioritize.
 
deerfever said:
Can anyone answer this question. I thought the benefit of opening two weeks later was the theory that hens would be bred . I have seen numerous people say on here if they move it back two weeks there is no need to reduce the limit? Why did they do both? TN has went from 5 birds , 4 plus a bonus bird, to 3 birds total, now to two birds total. I am going to email my commission rep to get his input on the matter because they all voted for it. I am sure he will have a detailed explanation as to why he voted the way he did and may have more insight on the matter. I was just hoping maybe someone could clear it up on here , or maybe I misunderstood the whole theory and it requires both. I would have thought they at least bring back the bonus bird on a drawn quota hunt with a two bird limit. I never have understood why they took that to begin with. Those areas are only hunted a few days a year with a quota limit of hunters., They have zero effect on the statewide population of turkey as they are controlled hunts.
Click to expand...
If seasons are set properly (after majority of hens are bred), there is zero reason to have a limit (other than jealously from other hunters) on spring gobblers.. I never felt right about killing what the state was allowed back when limit was 4 but season opened 2 weeks before peak breeding... so I didn't. But now that season is pushed back until peak breeding, I wish they would have raised the limit back to 4. Less impact on the resource killing 4 toms after breeding than killing 2 before breeding.

The original considerations were to keep the limit at 3 adult gobblers, but the jake killers bitched and moaned about how folks NEED to kill jakes, so the compromise was made to drop the limit to 2 birds, but 1 could be a jake.


I've said before, there is ZERO biological reason to have ANY limits on adult toms IF they are killed after hens have been bred and ALL jakes are protected. We now have a hodgepodge regulation which allows for hens to be bred, jakes can be killed, but overall kill is reduced.
 

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