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Breeding question

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Boll Weevil

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I've got a question about turkey breeding behavior and I honestly don't know the factual answer. With all the talk about removing too many of the boss birds early in the seaason leaving fewer (if any) breeders, consider the following. I'm sure we've all seen flocks of 2-5 toms and 8...9...a dozen or more hens in a group. Maybe 2 or 3 gobblers are strutting and the others just hanging along the fringes hoping for a chance to get lucky but dare not strut.

Is there any such thing as shared dominance in a little flock like this? Is the fact that the boss bird tolerates 1 or 2 others strutting (and breeding) if there's so many hens or is the boss really and truly the ONLY tom in a group like this that does any breeding.
 
I really don't know but if it's like deer then the younger bucks do the breeding as well. Nature would provide a way although the preference might be the dominant male, if the hen is ready she will breed whoever is available. I would say the boss gobbler has more sway over the other males rather than the hens.
 
It is my understanding that there is a study or two out there on the social interactions of a turkey flock that suggest removal of the dominant gobbler can disrupt any breeding of that flock for 2-3 weeks. It is one of the reasons this reaping bs is such a bad deal for the overall turkey population.
 
Every year I read about hunters dealing with long beards that ignore calls, decoys, etc. These birds have been beaten into a world where their breeding instincts are quelled due to dominance order.

Yes very early you'll see numerous strutters in a large group. However by the time the season opens its down to one strutter and several subordinate gobblers.

I truly believe that reaping and decoys are affecting the successful breeding in our flock. By the time the season opens its settled and with these crutches and bs tactics we are killing the population by making it far too easy to eliminate mature dominant breeding gobblers that are otherwise unkillable until after the hens are bred. I feel lots of hens are going unfertilized because the boss is gone and others afraid. That's the main reason I want all decoys outlawed, forever.
 
In my experience when a "boss" is gone another will take his place and do the breeding if one is available. I think the hens "know" if they need to be fertilized.

This is all me just speculating, no idea if it is actually true.

I also think that the actual courtship of turkeys last a lot longer than what we may think or see. I don't see a gobbler breed a hen every year but I would say most years I'll see it once or twice.

When I look back, it's usually in the afternoon and not in these big flocks in the morning. It's usually when there is only one hen and one gobbler together. And you can just tell the difference in how "hard" he is strutting.

I do know a bit about turkeys and birds biology and physiology, but there are many things like these questions on what birds do the most breeding that I have no clue. Perhaps if we could get several turkeys again in my area I can evaluate even better.


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There isn't a one size fits all response...

Turkeys establish a pecking order, which is retested often daily. Both gobblers as well as hens. The boss (which isn't necessarily the biggest bird), gets breeding rights as the hens control who allows to mate them (unlike other poultry, esp chickens, whose mating is basically rape). Satellite Tom's hang close, as they may get lucky and get to breed a hen who lets them when the boss is preoccupied with something else.

Once the boss is removed, it takes several days or even weeks for the pecking order to get reestablished and the hens to figure out who is supposed to breed them.

There are plenty of exceptions to the rule... we've all seen a group of jakes who gang up on a bigger mature gobbler and beat him into submission. Or subflocks who have 2 equal gobblers who share breeding rights.

Bottom line... don't assume that if you remove a gobbler early in the season before hens are allowing themselves to be bred that another will service them without a hiccup

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Interrupting the breeding "pecking order" and interrupting the overall breeding is one of the reasons that you see some of the "smarter" states that care about their turkey flock pushing back their opening of the season a couple of weeks. It allows more of their hens to be bred before the dominant birds are killed and breeding slows.
 
scn":2o5pqiwn said:
Interrupting the breeding "pecking order" and interrupting the overall breeding is one of the reasons that you see some of the "smarter" states that care about their turkey flock pushing back their opening of the season a couple of weeks. It allows more of their hens to be bred before the dominant birds are killed and breeding slows.
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Ditto!
 
Thanks for the responses; this is helpful.

I gotta figure they're gobbling like crazy right now to gather up the girls with the warmer temps and sunny skies. If the weather stays like this for the next little while, breeding will likely kick into high gear.
 
Breeding isn't determined by the weather, but by duration of daylight hours. Weather can certainly affect their behavior that day, but not timing of mating.
 
I would guess it's like chickens, some of them fight a lot and some not so much. A real mean bird is gonna have the hens to himself. The less dominant birds are the ones that share a flock of hens... either way if you kill the boss bird I'm pretty sure the other toms will step up to the plate


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catman529":2oyehep4 said:
I would guess it's like chickens, some of them fight a lot and some not so much. A real mean bird is gonna have the hens to himself. The less dominant birds are the ones that share a flock of hens... either way if you kill the boss bird I'm pretty sure the other toms will step up to the plate


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Click to expand...

The other toms will step up to the plate at some point. But some recent research into the social hierarchy suggest that won't take place until the new "pecking order" is established, which may take 2-3 weeks to establish. If that is in the peak of the breeding time, it causes issues.

It is one of the reasons that some of the states that care about their turkey flock are pushing back their opener a couple of weeks to allow some breeding to occur without this issue.
 
Remember the hen controls who she allows to mate. NOT the gobbler. If she doesn't like the new subordinate gobbler that is trying to take the place of the boss you killed early, she won't allow him to mate with her waiting for the dead boss to show back up.

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I am learning a lot here on this subject! So what you are saying is we should not shoot a dominant gobbler or go after him until later in April? How do you know at what point in time it's okay to take him? I will be honest I am old school and I have been whipped many times by an old boss with hens as it's just me against several but I love every minute of trying!The best time I have found to kill one like this anyway is when the hens go to nest. If you kill him before then, you are better man than me! Those ole boys are hard to come by and can occupy a whole season if you let them!
 
deerfever":xhw0y1dk said:
I am learning a lot here on this subject! So what you are saying is we should not shoot a dominant gobbler or go after him until later in April? How do you know at what point in time it's okay to take him? I will be honest I am old school and I have been whipped many times by an old boss with hens as it's just me against several but I love every minute of trying!The best time I have found to kill one like this anyway is when the hens go to nest. If you kill him before then, you are better man than me! Those ole boys are hard to come by and can occupy a whole season if you let them!
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I along with you have lost countless battles to dominant birds with hens. Frankly, each year many of these birds absolutely hand me my a$$ and don't say thanks. Haha. Every now and then I'll get lucky and punch ones ticket but most times like you they're unkillable until they start losing hens and the game changes.

This is why I hammer so hard on decoys, it's makes these birds so easy it's almost automatic. With all the new research coming out the handwriting is on the wall imo. Decoys aiding in the harvest of dominant birds early very well may be impacting breeding and thus damaging the reproduction of our flock. There's two choices of true shift the season back or outlaw decoys. The choice is crystal clear imo
 
I am totally ok with opening the season a couple weeks later than we do now. It gives me more time to fish. What I don't understand is all the talk here lately about outlawing decoys. Heck - that's how I got into turkey hunting as a kid and think it's good for young hunters or folks that don't have a lot of knowledge or time to get out in the woods much during the short spring season. I just want some to look at all aspects - that is all. I can't wait to take my daughter some day. At a very young age (when she will be still and silent lol), I want her sitting in a blind with a decoy right out in front of us. I love to run and gun just as much as anyone, but some days, the conditions and scenarios just aren't right for that - but sitting in a blind with a decoy is most sufficient. There is a time and place for everything.
 
JCDEERMAN":386p8s24 said:
I am totally ok with opening the season a couple weeks later than we do now. It gives me more time to fish. What I don't understand is all the talk here lately about outlawing decoys. Heck - that's how I got into turkey hunting as a kid and think it's good for young hunters or folks that don't have a lot of knowledge or time to get out in the woods much during the short spring season. I just want some to look at all aspects - that is all. I can't wait to take my daughter some day. At a very young age (when she will be still and silent lol), I want her sitting in a blind with a decoy right out in front of us. I love to run and gun just as much as anyone, but some days, the conditions and scenarios just aren't right for that - but sitting in a blind with a decoy is most sufficient. There is a time and place for everything.
Click to expand...

I've got no desire to get into what's best for you or your daughter and how you enjoy a hunt etc. with that said here's where I come from.

I like many learned to hunt turkeys at a young age with a cheap box call and some trash mouth call. I had no blind, no decoys. I fought gobblers that roosted in a swamp in Alabama and flew into the middle of hundred acre ag fields each morning. Did I have succcess? Heck no, I got schooled every morning for a long time. However, with each schooling I learned a little more and suddenly one day I tied it all together. That was almost 30 years ago, and about 200 dead long beards in the past. I realize now that those brutal, frustrating, and depressing early hunts made me learn turkeys, and how to effectively slaughter them each spring. Yes it sucked, but it honed me into the hunter I am today. Would I be the same hunter now if I had sat in a blind and simply shot turkeys? Not a chance


My disdain for decoys is that there's no earning that kill on a brutally tough dominant bird with them, it's almost automatic. There's no paying your dues for new hunters as they get instant gratification which I don't like, and feel is a massive cultural issue in this country. And also what damage is being done to the population with all the new breeding data coming out?

Trust me when I say it's a whole different game hunting dominant birds without a decoy or hunting field birds with only a call. Yes it's tough, but dam is it rewarding. I wish hunters would get back to embracing the challenge rather than the kill shot
 
Setterman":31inhzme said:
JCDEERMAN":31inhzme said:
I am totally ok with opening the season a couple weeks later than we do now. It gives me more time to fish. What I don't understand is all the talk here lately about outlawing decoys. Heck - that's how I got into turkey hunting as a kid and think it's good for young hunters or folks that don't have a lot of knowledge or time to get out in the woods much during the short spring season. I just want some to look at all aspects - that is all. I can't wait to take my daughter some day. At a very young age (when she will be still and silent lol), I want her sitting in a blind with a decoy right out in front of us. I love to run and gun just as much as anyone, but some days, the conditions and scenarios just aren't right for that - but sitting in a blind with a decoy is most sufficient. There is a time and place for everything.
Click to expand...

I've got no desire to get into what's best for you or your daughter and how you enjoy a hunt etc. with that said here's where I come from.

I like many learned to hunt turkeys at a young age with a cheap box call and some trash mouth call. I had no blind, no decoys. I fought gobblers that roosted in a swamp in Alabama and flew into the middle of hundred acre ag fields each morning. Did I have succcess? Heck no, I got schooled every morning for a long time. However, with each schooling I learned a little more and suddenly one day I tied it all together. That was almost 30 years ago, and about 200 dead long beards in the past. I realize now that those brutal, frustrating, and depressing early hunts made me learn turkeys, and how to effectively slaughter them each spring. Yes it sucked, but it honed me into the hunter I am today. Would I be the same hunter now if I had sat in a blind and simply shot turkeys? Not a chance


My disdain for decoys is that there's no earning that kill on a brutally tough dominant bird with them, it's almost automatic. There's no paying your dues for new hunters as they get instant gratification which I don't like, and feel is a massive cultural issue in this country. And also what damage is being done to the population with all the new breeding data coming out?

Trust me when I say it's a whole different game hunting dominant birds without a decoy or hunting field birds with only a call. Yes it's tough, but dam is it rewarding. I wish hunters would get back to embracing the challenge rather than the kill shot
Click to expand...
I whole-heartedly agree on all aspects.

I've done it all as well on those old birds with just a call. From your posts I've read in the past, you are undoubtedly a MUCH better turkey hunter than myself. I've killed my share, but my passion is more into deer and elk. Only until the last 10 years did I get obsessed with turkeys. I'd much rather go after a bird gobbling 400 yards away, get set up and kill him at less than 20 yards, or roosting them the evening before and hammering them as soon as their feet hit the ground the next morning....rather than sitting in a blind "deer hunting" them. To me, the thought of outlawing decoys seems "extreme", but it's just my opinion, which is neither right or wrong....but I think the whole issue here is timing (for breeding) and if that was adjusted by 1-2 weeks, it may be a more viable solution
 

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