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JRA

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Joined
Apr 21, 2013
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168
Location
Hendersonville, TN
I've taken two toms off our property. On successive Saturdays. Last one was 2 Saturday's ago.

Since then all I've heard is 4 total gobbles from two toms. Both what seemed to be a country mile from our property. So faint if I didn't hear the second gobble each time I wouldn't have been sure the first was an actual gobble.

Getting the vibe my season may be fruitless from here on. No complaints. Two birds on this property is a huge win. I was hopeful another gobbler or two would slip onto the property to take their place, but it seems a bit unlikely now.

I need to score 2-3 other spots to hunt...
 

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I hear you. It was like that in my spots for awhile. I think maybe a few birds have moved in though. Sometimes birds will move in, especially if a bird that was killed, was fairly dominant.
 
You can NEVER have too many spots to hunt.

And depending on how much property you have to hunt, I might leave it be the rest of the season in hope of another gobbler moving in.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
PalsPal":qhaomp2l said:
You can NEVER have too many spots to hunt.

And depending on how much property you have to hunt, I might leave it be the rest of the season in hope of another gobbler moving in.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I am curious and could use some advice in regard to what you stated.

We have 90-100 acres. It is bordered by some spaced out residential and woods.

I have hunted there about 7 years.
This is the first year I've taken a bird there in a few years (I hunt with a buddy on his places more often)
The last couple years I've had gobblers. Never got a shot last year. Two years ago I missed one.

This year I killed two, and now there seems to be no more.

On a property that small, and considering mortality rate of turkeys in general, am I dealing with the same toms from one year to the next or is it more likely I have new ones moving in and out from year to year?

In the first 2-3 years of hunting I went from several gobblers to no gobbling for a couple years. I only killed one bird, the first year. Now the last 3 have been good, but I killed 2 toms this year.

I guess I'm just trying to take an educated guess at how much taking those two birds influences next year and beyond.
 
JRA":1ahweyhv said:
I guess I'm just trying to take an educated guess at how much taking those two birds influences next year and beyond.
Going back many years on several thousand contiguous acres I've been somewhat monitoring,
it seems that a "sustainable" annual hunter kill has typically been somewhere between one 2-yr-old (or older) Tom per 200 acres to one per 500 acres.

There is just a myriad of factors involved, year to year, and some years there may not even be 1 Tom living per 500 acres.

All I can half keep up with are the reported kills and what is observed in the field (via my own eyes, others' eyes, and a network of trail cams). The "reported" human hunter kills generally exclude poached birds and those killed by a large variety of predators. Speaking of which, strutting Toms are particularly vulnerable to being killed by dogs, coyotes, bobcats, even bald eagles.

When you kill 2 or 3 Toms off less than 100 acres annually,
you may be killing the majority of what's living/roaming over the surrounding 500-plus acres.
Sometimes, pre-season, when we see a group of 5 to 10 (or more) longbeards together, that can often be the wintering "bachelor" group of all the living longbeards of the surrounding several square miles, not just 500-plus acres.

Of course, if no one else is hunting the surrounding 500-plus acres, may not matter that you kill two or more on a small acreage, but that is seldom the case.

Tom turkeys typically "roam" weekly over a much larger acreage than most hunters are wanting to accept.
The same turkeys I see as "mine" (on my place), a neighbor a mile down the road is calling "his".
Same is true for male deer.

You want to know the main reason most TN hunters aren't hearing much gobbling now?
It's because we've (statewide) already killed the majority of the 2-yr-old (and/or older) Toms that were living when the season opened.
 
TheLBLman":1w9muhjr said:
JRA":1w9muhjr said:
I guess I'm just trying to take an educated guess at how much taking those two birds influences next year and beyond.

Tom turkeys typically "roam" weekly over a much larger acreage than most hunters are wanting to accept.
The same turkeys I see as "mine" (on my place), a neighbor a mile down the road is calling "his".
Same is true for male deer.

This idea of roaming is a curious / intriguing one for me. Because it seems toms will roost in the same general area repeatedly. By your guess, do you anticipate their roosting area changes weekly? Generally speaking of course?

You would think with as few birds as I've taken, it would be crawling with birds, but that's just not the case. The last 3 years there tends to be 2-3 that are in the vicinity of the property.

It's all fascinating to me, but I've only been turkey hunting 7 years and am just now getting a grasp on the art / science.
 
JRA":3cavwyvc said:
This idea of roaming is a curious / intriguing one for me. Because it seems toms will roost in the same general area repeatedly.
By your guess, do you anticipate their roosting area changes weekly? Generally speaking of course?
Toms will sometimes repeatedly roost in the same general area for days on end (sometimes weeks).
But will often cease using a particular area (for days or weeks) with a single disturbance, such as a hunter flushing them off the roost.

Just keep in mind where they may be roosting several days in a row
may consist of less than 50 acres of the surrounding 500 - 1,000 acres they generally "visit" maybe even on most days.

One square mile is 640 acres.
A slow walking Tom, just walking along searching for a hen,
can easily travel a couple miles down a creek bottom or ridge-line just between 9am & 11am.
He may loaf around a bit during mid-day, make a large circle, may be back to one of his preferred roosting areas later in the afternoon.

But what kind of acreage is he stepping foot on in a typical day?

Two square miles is 2,560 acres.

Ole Tom likely has several preferred roosting areas within his range, some more than others, and may still use one more even if repeatedly disturbed from it, especially when there are major habitat limitations such as in more urban areas.

Traveling Toms may see large fields, lakes, subdivisions, major roads at least somewhat as a barrier they may not cross. But they do not recognize property lines.
 
If it were my 90-100 acres I'd be done killing there. Without knowing anything else about the property and productivity, killing 2 off a place that size is likely a good place to stop...LBL is right. A turkey can walk faster than a man can run and can cover some ground in a day. Think year over year sustainability, especially in years with poor hatches.
 
Boll Weevil":5shmjvmt said:
If it were my 90-100 acres I'd be done killing there. Without knowing anything else about the property and productivity, killing 2 off a place that size is likely a good place to stop...LBL is right. A turkey can walk faster than a man can run and can cover some ground in a day. Think year over year sustainability, especially in years with poor hatches.

Not being argumentative...
I probably am done for the year there, if for no other reason than there is no sign of more toms...haha

But the property went 3+ years without a Tom killed.
This year it seems there were two somewhat frequenting the property.

I guess I'm having a hard time fully embracing the year-to-year dynamic of managing because it seems not harvesting turkeys has not increased the population on this property.

But that may just be flat out wrong...haha
 
JRA":3c1ed4tg said:
I guess I'm having a hard time fully embracing the year-to-year dynamic of managing because it seems not harvesting turkeys has not increased the population on this property.
Except, if you had killed 2 last year there, you might not be seeing any there this year.

Many the factors effecting ongoing turkey populations are just beyond our control.
Trigger restraint is one of the few we can control, at least personally.

I have a particular 300 acres I do more turkey hunting on than any other 300-acre area.
Going back two decades, I can tell you there have been 1.4 two-yr-old or older Toms legally killed on it annually (on average).
There have been many years of zero, most with one.

Of course, I'm sure there have been a few poached, as well as a few strutters taken out by predators.
There is a particular bald eagle that likes to sit in a tree by my house, watching for strutters who dare step out into the biggest field.
NOTHING I can do about this.
At least he hunts over many square miles, and maybe only occasionally prefers turkey over fish.

This is in an area of Stewart County where most (at least within TWRA) seem to think the turkey density is better than "statewide".
Longterm, great habitat area for turkeys, plenty of flowing water, food, cover, diverse.
Last year, I did not kill a turkey on it.
I could have killed one (that's all that I was regularly seeing there), but chose not to.
This year, same story.
Extensive trail cam inventory shows only one 2-yr-old Tom regularly being on this 300 acres.
I may kill him in the morning, but the conservationist within me says maybe I shouldn't.
He's very likely the same Tom I let live last year.

Pre-season, at one time there was a winter flock of 5 longbeards using this area.
Then they dispersed.
Now there is one, and very likely all those others have been killed in the surrounding area.
 
TheLBLman":7gcd8rxp said:
JRA":7gcd8rxp said:
I guess I'm having a hard time fully embracing the year-to-year dynamic of managing because it seems not harvesting turkeys has not increased the population on this property.
Except, if you had killed 2 last year there, you might not be seeing any there this year.

Many the factors effecting ongoing turkey populations are just beyond our control.
Trigger restraint is one of the few we can control, at least personally.

Without a doubt...
I think more so, I'm just trying to ascertain are the turkeys on this property "my turkeys" or is it a random group each year...haha
 
JRA":392bcegv said:
I'm just trying to ascertain are the turkeys on this property "my turkeys" or is it a random group each year.
Very likely mostly the same turkeys from year to year.
It's just that your property likely comprises a minority of the acreage they regularly use from week to week.

Every location is different.
Turkeys (and deer) will typically roam around more & farther in areas where the habitat is not fragmented by subdivisions & major barriers (like 4-lane roads).
 
JRA":2qy1paey said:
TheLBLman":2qy1paey said:
JRA":2qy1paey said:
I guess I'm having a hard time fully embracing the year-to-year dynamic of managing because it seems not harvesting turkeys has not increased the population on this property.
Except, if you had killed 2 last year there, you might not be seeing any there this year.

Many the factors effecting ongoing turkey populations are just beyond our control.
Trigger restraint is one of the few we can control, at least personally.

Without a doubt...
I think more so, I'm just trying to ascertain are the turkeys on this property "my turkeys" or is it a random group each year...haha
I think it's a random group each year. They move in and out all year long and from year to year. They don't just stay there.
The two you shot where probably using a square mile or more of land. Perhaps this season another one will come through. Next year, if you have good habitat for spring hunting, your likely to have another bird or two


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I may be misrepresenting an article from a few years ago but it spoke about the mortality of poults from hatch to hatch could be as bad as a %50 loss of poults. They quoted flood conditions and very cold temperatures as the most detrimental to the poults. This spring and last we had significant rainfall and flooding ( much beyond our normal in East Tn.). I know that I haven't seen as many gobblers as I have in the past.
 
what are your goals? To kill a bird even two, maybe 3 every 3rd or 4th year? Or to kill a bird every year?

If the former, keep hunting, but don't be surprised if you don't hear a gobble on your place for several years in the future.

If the latter, you need hens to nest, hatch poults, then have those poults imprint on your property. After a few years, your property will be the ones hens initiate nests on, and the toms will follow. But for that to happen, you have to provide good habitat for feeding, nesting, loafing, and bugging for poults. And you have to allow hens to initiate nests before you start hunting and pushing them off the property. Which means you have to leave them alone until mid April. Probably too much work to have a sustainable huntable population for years in the future.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk
 
Nsghunter":3pngr008 said:
I may be misrepresenting an article from a few years ago but it spoke about the mortality of poults from hatch to hatch could be as bad as a %50 loss of poults. They quoted flood conditions and very cold temperatures as the most detrimental to the poults.
I would think if half nests initiated hatched out ANY chicks that would be a good starting point.

The highest mortality occurs in the first few days after they hatch.
If 50% of those that hatch (on average) survive to see a year of age, that would be exceptionally good now imo.
EVERYTHING is out to eat them.
And cold wet chicks can also die of just this exposure.

During the first few days, one coyote can take out all the baby chicks in a matter of hours, if not minutes.
Let a Cooper's hawk see them during the first day or two, be lucky if 2 out of 10 chicks survive before Mr. Cooper moves on.

Once they can fly and get larger, those which have survived are much harder caught.
But turkeys under a year of age can still be frequently ambushed by coyotes & bobcats.
They also have to worry about owls while on the roost, and can never not be hunted by the larger predators.

We human hunters may kill more longbeards, but other predators kill more hens & turkeys in general.
 
megalomaniac":1xsd0wdf said:
what are your goals? To kill a bird even two, maybe 3 every 3rd or 4th year? Or to kill a bird every year?

If the former, keep hunting, but don't be surprised if you don't hear a gobble on your place for several years in the future.

If the latter, you need hens to nest, hatch poults, then have those poults imprint on your property. After a few years, your property will be the ones hens initiate nests on, and the toms will follow. But for that to happen, you have to provide good habitat for feeding, nesting, loafing, and bugging for poults. And you have to allow hens to initiate nests before you start hunting and pushing them off the property. Which means you have to leave them alone until mid April. Probably too much work to have a sustainable huntable population for years in the future.

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At this point 1-2 toms a year would be ideal.
I have taken 3 toms total off this property in 7 years.

Year 1 = several birds gobbling...I killed 1
Years 2-3 = nothing...no gobbles, no kills
Year 4 = one Tom who gave me the slip all year
Year 5 = one Tom (shot and missed) and a few Jakes
Year 6 = a couple of Toms, but no luck
Year 7 = two Toms, April 11 & 18

I went fishing there this evening with my family and saw 4 hens on the border property. Turkeys roam between the two properties.

Regarding the "probably too much work" comment, I will make the assumption that wasn't intended to be as condescending and sanctimonious as it came across.

The place is 30-minutes from my house. It's the only spot I have that is local that I can hunt alone. The rest of the time I'm driving 1:15 one way to hunt with a friend. We have a great time and we are usually successful in taking a bird, but I have young kids and a job. That much of an investment to hunt is not conducive to getting to hunt as much as I would like.

Regardless of all the conversation, I have no complaints. The property provided more than I hoped this season. My big curiosity was about the travel of birds and whether they stay on a property multiple years or are we predominantly dealing with new, random turkeys every spring.
 
Yes, it was very condescending and sanctimonious. But perhaps not directed at you, but just the average turkey hunter I encounter while in the woods both in TN as well as MS. I deserve a little of that condescension, as I was too lazy to take the effort to fully explain how to improve your property for decades to come. So, with that being said... get ready for a small book.

First of all, turkeys need more hunters to be 'producers' rather than 'consumers'. What I mean by that is we all have a part to play to ensure turkeys are available for ourselves as well as future generations. Sure, we are here to take the surplus to eat, but it should never be beyond surplus males, and we must be extremely careful not to overharvest the resource.

An average spring gobbler has around 500 acres he uses as his home turf. But they frequently relocate to a completely new 500 ac home territory if there are no available hens, or the habitat will not support him. In that 500 acre home range, he will spend the majority of his time on the very best portion of habitat.. maybe only 40- 50 acres. Even then, he will roost in the same tree on consecutive nights only 20% of the time, but he will have 4 or 5 favorite roosting spots he bounces around to in that home range. He wants to gobble to let other toms who have established home ranges around him to stay away, as well as gobble to attract hens to check him out to see if he is the fittest to mate with.

While he is doing his thing, the hens are also doing their thing. Specifically looking for the fittest male to mate with, while at the same time selecting for habitat which will provide to most likely ability to successfully establish a nest, incubate and hatch a clutch, and then provide food for that clutch in the form of insects. Hens become very territorial toward each other after establishing a nest, and because of that, will usually space nests away from one another by at least 200 yards. While laying, hens must water daily, often times multiple times a day. Cover is needed for successful incubation, as well as ample food (but adult turkeys can eat just about anything... the food part is the easiest to provide for). Poults need protein, LOTS of it. Because they feather out so fast for survival compared to other poultry, it is impossible to provide enough protein from plant sources. So they must have insects. They also need habitat they can easily move through. If a hen successfully hatches a clutch and she must travel more than 800 yards in the first day of life to take the poults to the habitat they require, the mortality of that brood is 100%.

So... back to being a 'producer' rather than a 'consumer'... what can you do to ensure your 100 acres is the best habitat to attract the most birds and provide for the best chance for poult production? #1- provide a water source. If you have a pond or creek on your property, you are fine already. If you don't, dig one. #2- habitat diversity.... the more diverse the better. Open hardwoods, small manicured fields or pastures, small food plots, dense thickets, areas with early secessional growth from prior burns, etc. As many in a mosaic on your 100 acres. #3- trap nest predators and hunt coyotes. Nest predators need to be your main focus from the end of deer season until the end of trapping season. Get a half dozen DP racoon traps and run them, and run them, and run them. Then focus on the coyotes in March. The more you remove, the better. #4- make sure you do not remove the majority of males from an area. A general rule of thumb is to not remove more than 25% of toms until mid April, then another 25% in the second half of the season... but never more than 50% of the total toms in the area. Sure, it's hard to know exactly how many available toms there are in the spring, but I've found you can get a pretty good guesstimate with hours spent afield just before and during the season. (DO NOT BASE THE NUMBER OF TOMS AVAILABLE TO HARVEST BASED ON WINTERTIME BACHELOR GROUPS!... those birds come spring may be as many as 4 or 5 miles away and not available to breed your local hens.) It's hard to do #4... the hunter/ 'consumer' in us all wants to take as many birds as possible, especially before our neighbor kills them all. Or wants to take as many off public land because if we don't, someone else will. I'm guilty of it when I'm not on my TN farms. But I have been able to show a lot of restraint over the decades while on my TN farms... for example, I shut all hunting down for 2 weeks on 2000 acres scattered out over 5 farms after we killed 4 birds in the first 3 days of the season. Opened back up mid April and removed another 3 birds in 3 days... Then now shut down for the remainder of the season. I still have toms with hens, breeding hens, and giving hens the best chance for fertile nests.

In your specific example, the most bothersome thing about what you've said is that you've seen 4 hens on the neighbor's property. If you meant you saw 4 single hens in different areas, that's OK, it's just the ladies taking a break off the nest to get a drink or bite to eat. But if you saw 4 hens together with no gobbler around... well, that means you've already overharvested your local area. Maybe another tom will travel off from a distant property to service them, but if not, or a different hen loses her nest and attempts to renest, there may not be a tom available to ensure a successful mating/ fertilization.

So... back to my comment in a previous post... 'probably too much work'.... for most hunters, I stand by that comment. I hope you are different and want to be a 'producer' rather than a 'consumer'
 
megalomaniac":3i2qxsqr said:
Yes, it was very condescending and sanctimonious. But perhaps not directed at you, but just the average turkey hunter I encounter while in the woods both in TN as well as MS. I deserve a little of that condescension, as I was too lazy to take the effort to fully explain how to improve your property for decades to come. So, with that being said... get ready for a small book.

First of all, turkeys need more hunters to be 'producers' rather than 'consumers'. What I mean by that is we all have a part to play to ensure turkeys are available for ourselves as well as future generations. Sure, we are here to take the surplus to eat, but it should never be beyond surplus males, and we must be extremely careful not to overharvest the resource.

An average spring gobbler has around 500 acres he uses as his home turf. But they frequently relocate to a completely new 500 ac home territory if there are no available hens, or the habitat will not support him. In that 500 acre home range, he will spend the majority of his time on the very best portion of habitat.. maybe only 40- 50 acres. Even then, he will roost in the same tree on consecutive nights only 20% of the time, but he will have 4 or 5 favorite roosting spots he bounces around to in that home range. He wants to gobble to let other toms who have established home ranges around him to stay away, as well as gobble to attract hens to check him out to see if he is the fittest to mate with.

While he is doing his thing, the hens are also doing their thing. Specifically looking for the fittest male to mate with, while at the same time selecting for habitat which will provide to most likely ability to successfully establish a nest, incubate and hatch a clutch, and then provide food for that clutch in the form of insects. Hens become very territorial toward each other after establishing a nest, and because of that, will usually space nests away from one another by at least 200 yards. While laying, hens must water daily, often times multiple times a day. Cover is needed for successful incubation, as well as ample food (but adult turkeys can eat just about anything... the food part is the easiest to provide for). Poults need protein, LOTS of it. Because they feather out so fast for survival compared to other poultry, it is impossible to provide enough protein from plant sources. So they must have insects. They also need habitat they can easily move through. If a hen successfully hatches a clutch and she must travel more than 800 yards in the first day of life to take the poults to the habitat they require, the mortality of that brood is 100%.

So... back to being a 'producer' rather than a 'consumer'... what can you do to ensure your 100 acres is the best habitat to attract the most birds and provide for the best chance for poult production? #1- provide a water source. If you have a pond or creek on your property, you are fine already. If you don't, dig one. #2- habitat diversity.... the more diverse the better. Open hardwoods, small manicured fields or pastures, small food plots, dense thickets, areas with early secessional growth from prior burns, etc. As many in a mosaic on your 100 acres. #3- trap nest predators and hunt coyotes. Nest predators need to be your main focus from the end of deer season until the end of trapping season. Get a half dozen DP racoon traps and run them, and run them, and run them. Then focus on the coyotes in March. The more you remove, the better. #4- make sure you do not remove the majority of males from an area. A general rule of thumb is to not remove more than 25% of toms until mid April, then another 25% in the second half of the season... but never more than 50% of the total toms in the area. Sure, it's hard to know exactly how many available toms there are in the spring, but I've found you can get a pretty good guesstimate with hours spent afield just before and during the season. (DO NOT BASE THE NUMBER OF TOMS AVAILABLE TO HARVEST BASED ON WINTERTIME BACHELOR GROUPS!... those birds come spring may be as many as 4 or 5 miles away and not available to breed your local hens.) It's hard to do #4... the hunter/ 'consumer' in us all wants to take as many birds as possible, especially before our neighbor kills them all. Or wants to take as many off public land because if we don't, someone else will. I'm guilty of it when I'm not on my TN farms. But I have been able to show a lot of restraint over the decades while on my TN farms... for example, I shut all hunting down for 2 weeks on 2000 acres scattered out over 5 farms after we killed 4 birds in the first 3 days of the season. Opened back up mid April and removed another 3 birds in 3 days... Then now shut down for the remainder of the season. I still have toms with hens, breeding hens, and giving hens the best chance for fertile nests.

In your specific example, the most bothersome thing about what you've said is that you've seen 4 hens on the neighbor's property. If you meant you saw 4 single hens in different areas, that's OK, it's just the ladies taking a break off the nest to get a drink or bite to eat. But if you saw 4 hens together with no gobbler around... well, that means you've already overharvested your local area. Maybe another tom will travel off from a distant property to service them, but if not, or a different hen loses her nest and attempts to renest, there may not be a tom available to ensure a successful mating/ fertilization.

So... back to my comment in a previous post... 'probably too much work'.... for most hunters, I stand by that comment. I hope you are different and want to be a 'producer' rather than a 'consumer'

TL/DR

Just kidding...haha

Fortunately, we have good habitat. We have 2 ponds and a creek that dries up on occasion. We have woods and open green fields. We have thick areas and tall grass areas.

The predator trapping / hunting is not something we have done, but I would definitely be glad to do it.

The 25% rule is tricky, because in a given year about the most I have heard is 3 different birds gobbling. And of course, due to the size of property, not all of them are roosted on our property. And that's a rarity. It has typically been 1, maybe 2.

Even with minimal hunting / harvesting through the years, it just seems to be a spot that will not hold multiple toms. The two I took this year were both gobbling the day I took the first one (I assume it was the same two birds). They were in the same general area.

You are talking about working 2000 acres. Is 100 acres really worth working with such effort when a bird is working 500 acres? Again, we have solid habitat. Our biggest issue is likely predators. I'm not against putting in extra work. I just wonder about the fruitfulness in such a small parcel.

And I do appreciate your "book". It was very informative!
 

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