Dried Up

[megalomaniac]

100 acres is ABSOLUTELY worth it.

My 2000 acres is not contiguous. For example, one farm is 150 acres. The front 100 is nothing but flat pasture and hayground. Birds occasionally wander onto it, but only rarely. The back 50 is rolling hills leading up to tall hills with mature timber right across my line. We've always had birds travel through that area, especially in the fall and winter. About 10 years ago, we dug 2 ponds and installed 2 food plots with clover on the back 50 acres. Started pressuring the coyotes and raccoons the past 3 years in addition to habitat improvement. We went from having an occasional hen and jakes in the spring prior to 10 years ago to usually having 5-8 gobblers, 20 hens, and 5-10 jakes using the property daily throughout the season (when I say daily, I mean they physically are on that 50 acres, although they may spend a large portion of their time on neighboring properties as well). We typically take 2-3 toms off that property during the season, and haven't negatively impacted nesting success. This year was different, as someone hunting the property to the south started baiting and pulling the majority of the birds away.... but the birds are still in the general area, just not using this 50 acres regularly in the early season. As the season progressed, nesting habitat become more important than bait, and male birds started following the hens onto the property.

In other words, 100 acres is nowhere near enough land to expect a flock of turkeys to live on exclusively... but if your 100 acres is the best habitat out of the surrounding 600 acres, you will pull the lions share of birds to your property. OFC, due to turkey's social dynamics, only a set number of birds will actually tolerate being together during breeding/ nesting season, so that also becomes a limiting factor to how many birds will predominantly stay on the property.

 

[JRA]

100 acres is ABSOLUTELY worth it.

My 2000 acres is not contiguous. For example, one farm is 150 acres. The front 100 is nothing but flat pasture and hayground. Birds occasionally wander onto it, but only rarely. The back 50 is rolling hills leading up to tall hills with mature timber right across my line. We've always had birds travel through that area, especially in the fall and winter. About 10 years ago, we dug 2 ponds and installed 2 food plots with clover on the back 50 acres. Started pressuring the coyotes and raccoons the past 3 years in addition to habitat improvement. We went from having an occasional hen and jakes in the spring prior to 10 years ago to usually having 5-8 gobblers, 20 hens, and 5-10 jakes using the property daily throughout the season (when I say daily, I mean they physically are on that 50 acres, although they may spend a large portion of their time on neighboring properties as well). We typically take 2-3 toms off that property during the season, and haven't negatively impacted nesting success. This year was different, as someone hunting the property to the south started baiting and pulling the majority of the birds away.... but the birds are still in the general area, just not using this 50 acres regularly in the early season. As the season progressed, nesting habitat become more important than bait, and male birds started following the hens onto the property.

In other words, 100 acres is nowhere near enough land to expect a flock of turkeys to live on exclusively... but if your 100 acres is the best habitat out of the surrounding 600 acres, you will pull the lions share of birds to your property. OFC, due to turkey's social dynamics, only a set number of birds will actually tolerate being together during breeding/ nesting season, so that also becomes a limiting factor to how many birds will predominantly stay on the property.

Well, sounds like I need to start predator hunting / trapping. I don't think there is much hunting pressure around me, and the habitat checks many of the boxes you have referenced. I am interested to see, next year, how harvesting 2 toms this year impacts next spring.

 

[TheLBLman]

Very good & insightful post, Megalomaniac.
Just to highlight some key points you made . . . . . .

Turkeys need more hunters to be 'producers' rather than 'consumers'. . . . . . and we must be extremely careful not to over-harvest the resource.

An average spring gobbler has around 500 acres he uses as his home turf.
But they frequently relocate to a completely new 500 ac home territory . . . . . he will spend the majority of his time on the very best portion of habitat,
maybe only 40- 50 acres.

While laying, hens must water daily, often times multiple times a day.
Poults need protein, LOTS of it.
So they must have insects.

So... back to being a 'producer' rather than a 'consumer'... what can you do to ensure your 100 acres is the best habitat to attract the most birds and provide for the best chance for poult production?
#1- provide a water source.
#2- habitat diversity.... the more diverse the better.
#3- trap nest predators and hunt coyotes.
#4- make sure you do not remove the majority of males (turkeys) from an area.

DO NOT BASE THE NUMBER OF TOMS AVAILABLE TO HARVEST BASED ON WINTERTIME BACHELOR GROUPS!
... those birds come spring may be as many as 4 or 5 miles away and not available to breed your local hens.

The world is comprised of people who are either a bit more a "giver" or a bit more a "taker".
I'm sad to report that more turkey hunters seem to be more on the "taker" side,
and I hope some of that has been from a lack of good information.

But what can we expect when our TWRA is so badly mismanaging our turkey resource with a season opening too early, a limit that is too high, and a season that lasts too long? To the average turkey hunter, TWRA's regs suggests we need not worry about trigger restraint, hurry up, go kill your four.

Never mind, the actual resource cannot support most hunters even killing a single turkey annually?
Some where along the line, TWRA forgot that part in their mission statement about "doing no harm" to the resource?

I do somewhat understand TWRA's dilemma between getting funding (from license sales), and these regs seem primarily geared towards just that.
But when the resource is deteriorated to a certain point,
those non-resident license sales can dry up quicker than if TWRA started managing more for turkeys than sales.

I keep mentioning non-resident licenses sales because it appears our turkey regs are more about augmenting those non-resident sales than managing our resident turkey resources. Our turkey season opens a couple weeks earlier than Kentucky's (and many other states), and is a particularly big "draw" to avid KY turkey hunters. KY is significant because no other state shares as much common border with TN as does KY. And on average, these non-resident turkey hunters are far more accomplished turkey killers than our resident TN turkey hunters. The non-residents come to TN with a goal of limiting out in TN before the season opens in their home state (and other states they may hunt as non-residents).

Just note how so many of our annual kill comes from the first 9 days of the season each spring.
Most our turkey-hunting residents don't stop turkey hunting on Day 10 (which would most often be @ April 10), it's just that there are relatively few longbeards remaining, and we've already over-harvested the resource by the 10th day.

I believe a good compromise (so as to not drastically cut the non-resident license sales) could be to begin opening or turkey season on the 1st Saturday of April (as opposed to the Saturday nearest April 1st, which is in late March about half the years). The 2nd Saturday of April would be better in terms of managing for turkeys more than sales.
Couple this with reducing our 4-bird limit to a 2-bird limit.
I believe over half the non-resident turkey hunters would still find TN "worth it", but fewer will if TWRA continues its turkey mismanagement.

Just to be clear, the mismanagement may rest more with the politically appointed commissioners than with the TWRA leaders/biologists.

And I am not "hating" on non-resident turkey hunters, as I am periodically a non-resident hunter/fisherman in other states myself.
Just would like to see TWRA assuming a better balance (on the turkey regs) in managing as much for residents as non-residents, while making conserving our turkey resources a priority instead of an after-thought.

 

[TheLBLman]

Is 100 acres really worth working with such effort when a bird is working 500 acres?

IMO, the lack of acreage is all the MORE reason to do all you can.

Understand, that all things being equal (which they never are),
"your" turkeys should be spending 80% of their time OUTSIDE or off your 100 acres.

By making your 100 acres more attractive & better for turkeys than the surrounding,
you might get that 80% down to more like 40%,
meaning the majority of the Tom's utilizing the surrounding area might actually be spending about half their time on your 100 acres.

Also, I suspect there is more hunting (and killing) in the surrounding area that it may casually appear. Just think of all the possibilities how hunting could be unseen a mile in every direction around most 100-acre tracts.
Toms looking for hens can frequently travel over a linear mile most any morning in April.
You can easily walk a mile in 20 minutes.
Mr. Tom can easily "slow walk" a mile in less than an hour.

 

[megalomaniac]

JRA, if there really isn't any hunting all around you, and you only have a couple toms each spring, your local flock would really respond to leaving them alone until the end of April. Let's the toms breed the hens without fear of them being killed by someone else, the go in toward the end of season and hunt them.

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[Shooter77]

I've never understood turkeys and their patterns. I had a farm that leased that one late 2016 feb day i pull in and there is 21 jakes hanging together. That early April, i had a bird gobble 1 time over 500 yards away. i hike over and make a call and he comes over the hill and i shoot him. as i'm walking out, there is a ceder patch and in was 14-17 jakes. they flew off in every direction. For the next 2 seasons, that farm only had 1-2 birds ever gobbling on it. No clue where all those jakes when too.

The woods behind my house is about 400-500 yards wide by 84 acres. one side is a interstate, the other is the subdivision. 2015 we moved in, i had 6 birds gobbling most of the spring on a ridge behind my house. Had 2 walk through my yard and across my drive way while while i was playing with my kids in the front yard. 2016 I had 4 gobbling back there. I hunted it 3 times, had numerous close cause and finally killed 1 at 6 steps. 2017 & 2018 heard 2 birds back there. Didn't even hunt it. Had a few mid day birds strolling the ridge gobbling.

2019 never heard a bird gobble but opening day i was looking out the window about 11 and there was a strutter with 9 hens & few jakes between my house and neighbors. I hunted a few days but he had flown over train tracks gobbling like a mad man between 2 more subdivisions. Seen 2 more on other side of neighborhood that bordered my woods. Had a few hens come through, only 1 had a hatch of 6 in july in my back yard.

2020, heard 1 bird gobble a few times before season. took my son for youth weekend. heard and seen lots of hens but 0 gobbles. i heard 1 bird gobble a few times off and on over the month of april. i ended up hunting it 1 evening and shot a strutter while he was with his 5 jake buddies. this past week i've heard a few gobbles coming the ridge again. I might take my boy for a chance this week. I will not bother hunting any more back there. i figure 1 is enough for me.

 

[elknturkey]

Your still going to have a front end heavy harvest no matter when the season opens. Bulk of every states kills that I'm aware of are the first 10 days. Highest number of birds available and most hunters out and about. Just simple math. More hens being bred undisturbed is the only reason to delay it and it's a good reason. Taking the limit down and no Jake's would help more than moving the season back

 

[TheLBLman]

Your still going to have a front end heavy harvest no matter when the season opens. . . . . Taking the limit down and no Jake's would help more than moving the season back

Yes, the bulk of the harvest will indeed be during the 1st 10 days, no matter when it opens.
But, that's not the issue.

The issue is multi-fold.

1st, more hens could successfully nest if our TN season opened a week or two later.

2nd, even though the bulk of our spring kill would be during the 1st 10 days,
we would still kill fewer turkeys for a couple very real reasons.

We would have fewer non-resident hunters during the 1st 10 days if our season opened at least a week later. The non-residents tend to be much more accomplished turkey killers than our average resident hunter. Non-resident hunters would "spread" over more other states if TN wasn't opening earlier than so many others.

Another reason (with a later opening date) we would kill fewer turkeys (although we might kill more per hunter afield) is that many people would find fishing competing more for their time. This particular "fewer" is mainly in context to those 1st 10 days, as we likely would kill about the same over the entire season, but would be spreading the harvest over a larger group of hunters, and allowing more Toms to breed before they were killed.

Another reason the total kill would become less during those 1st 10 days (although, again, not necessarily for the entire season) is that with more spring green-up, more insects coming out, turkeys would be less drawn to illegal baiting. Many of those illegally killed baited birds are not even checked in as so many are just killed behind people's homes. More would get "counted" if they were killed later in the season by a legal hunter, all of whom would have better hunting if we reduced the amount of poaching over bait.

As to the limits, I don't think reducing the limit would help any more than delaying the opening date, but both may work well together to help us have much more enjoyable, sustainable higher-quality turkey hunting ongoing, even if none of us were allowed to kill more than 2 each. By higher quality, I'm mainly meaning hearing a lot more gobbling, and simply having more longbeards to be able to see and hunt.

In the meantime, there are not enough adult longbeards living for each hunter to kill one, much less two,
so good thing most turkey hunters don't kill one?
More would kill "a" turkey if many weren't killing 3 or 4 consistently, every year?

 

[JRA]

So we've talked a good bit about a Tom's proclivity for wandering 500 acres or so as his domain.

How about hens? Are they more localized? Less wandering? Smaller area of living?

I ask because rationally speaking, if you keep hens on your property, you will likely have toms every year as the males comes find them?

 

[Andy S.]

^^^ This is just one look into a juvenile hen's life, but it is pretty eye opening to many. As with most things turkey related, we don't know or fully understand far more than what we know and understand.

 

[megalomaniac]

So we've talked a good bit about a Tom's proclivity for wandering 500 acres or so as his domain.

How about hens? Are they more localized? Less wandering? Smaller area of living?

I ask because rationally speaking, if you keep hens on your property, you will likely have toms every year as the males comes find them?

Hens in their family group wander quite a bit during the winter (as do the bachelor groups of toms). As the winter flocks break up into subflocks merging with gobblers, social dominance amongst hens begins to establish. The hens then branch out from subflocks into individual breeding flocks with the most dominant hen breeding first, the subordinates in order. concurrently, those hens are looking for suitable nesting habitat with food, water, cover, and bugging habitat to begin their nests. They will continue socialize with the flock and continue to mate with the gobbler throughout egg laying to maximize fertility. Once predetermined clutch size has been reached, they leave the flock and focus on incubation, then rearing poults. In late summer, hens with their poults group back up for safety in numbers.

(This is based on breeding behavior in TN... for whatever reason, hens in south MS are more independent, and tend to break away from the spring flock shortly after initial breeding and lead more individual lives, with occasional forays back to the flock to rebreed.)

Hens control the actual breeding. Turkeys are not like chickens or ducks.... where the male will grab the female and force the female to set for him. Male turkeys won't mount the female until she chooses to sit for him and she allow him to mount and breed her. Because of this, toms have a tendency to follow the hens much more so than hens following the toms. So, if you cam provide exceptional nesting habitat which attracts hens, they will come, squawk incessantly if they need to be bred, and thereby attract gobblers to your property (assuming there are males in the area to hear them). If there are no males, they will go ahead and start nests with infertile eggs, sit on them, then abandon them midway through incubation (for some reason they don't figure out they are infertile and a waste of time until midway through the incubation process). Some hens are smart enough to realize their eggs are infertile and don't initiate nests. They just drop eggs randomly daily across the landscape without revisiting until they complete ovulation.

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[Boll Weevil]

22 miles. Twenty two.

Draw a 22 mile radius (not diameter) circle around your hunting ground and just sit back and study it. Apparently I been killing N MS strain birds for right many years. And they been killin TN strains at the very same time. Just really interesting to me. Had no idea.

 

[megalomaniac]

Boll weevil,

Ask Mike Chamberlain... that 22 miles is NOT typical for the average female hen to travel. He was just using it as an extreme example. She was likely a hen that lost all her family flock.

Don't get me wrong.. 5 to 10 miles is NOTHING for a turkey to travel from winter grounds to spring grounds. They can and do move a lot. But 22 miles is not the norm, so don't misinterpret that data as typical for all turkeys.

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[woodsman04]

They move 20 miles easy when they move in to my personal place.
This is what I'm trying to say to the original poster. I have a small 65 acre farm that I do habitat on strictly for turkeys and quail. Every spring I've owned the place, there has been no less than one long beard or no more than three using the place during spring. And usually get pictures of 10 hens plus or minus a few with the gobbler or two. I have lots of trail cams, I work up there and listen up there very often, i know what's there and what aint. I'm not just talking about those turkeys exclusively live on my property. They use the entire 2 or 3 square mile block.
When I first got the place and hunted it, I'd kill every long beard I could whether it was one or three. The most I've ever shot off of it was two, and I usually get or got one or the one.
My point is, when I killed the only one, next spring another one was back. When I killed one of the two or three birds, next spring another one two or three was back. There's been years where I didn't kill one of the one two or three, and the next year I'd have one bird back.
They do not always do the same thing all the time, when turkeys split up from their winter flocks they find a suitable nesting area and that's where they are. They aren't stuck and tied down to one area either.
This instances is why you can see huge flocks during deer season but when spring comes you may have only a few or none. At my place we don't have turkeys from September/October through fall and winter and every mid March some will move back in.
I no longer hunt the place to kill the one or only bird. If there are a couple or three up there I will attempt to shoot one, and if I do I let the other one or two be. If I was confident there was only one gobbler, I'd not hunt him. The hens nest up there, brood up there, and around September they leave.

This entire area/community is completely void of turkeys during the winter months. I'm confident in saying that. I'm confident that they move 15-20 miles where ever they come from to nest up there. I'm confident that it's just random turkeys every spring.
I'm also certain that if this was one of the highly populated areas that I could kill a gobbler on it once a week because they move in and out so much where there are lots of turkeys. If the land around mine wasn't just hay and ag fields only and more good woods and overgrown grass fields and food plots, I'd have more each spring because the nesting would be so much better or more nesting grounds.


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[JRA]

They move 20 miles easy when they move in to my personal place.
This is what I'm trying to say to the original poster. I have a small 65 acre farm that I do habitat on strictly for turkeys and quail. Every spring I've owned the place, there has been no less than one long beard or no more than three using the place during spring. And usually get pictures of 10 hens plus or minus a few with the gobbler or two. I have lots of trail cams, I work up there and listen up there very often, i know what's there and what aint. I'm not just talking about those turkeys exclusively live on my property. They use the entire 2 or 3 square mile block.
When I first got the place and hunted it, I'd kill every long beard I could whether it was one or three. The most I've ever shot off of it was two, and I usually get or got one or the one.
My point is, when I killed the only one, next spring another one was back. When I killed one of the two or three birds, next spring another one two or three was back. There's been years where I didn't kill one of the one two or three, and the next year I'd have one bird back.
They do not always do the same thing all the time, when turkeys split up from their winter flocks they find a suitable nesting area and that's where they are. They aren't stuck and tied down to one area either.
This instances is why you can see huge flocks during deer season but when spring comes you may have only a few or none. At my place we don't have turkeys from September/October through fall and winter and every mid March some will move back in.
I no longer hunt the place to kill the one or only bird. If there are a couple or three up there I will attempt to shoot one, and if I do I let the other one or two be. If I was confident there was only one gobbler, I'd not hunt him. The hens nest up there, brood up there, and around September they leave.

This entire area/community is completely void of turkeys during the winter months. I'm confident in saying that. I'm confident that they move 15-20 miles where ever they come from to nest up there. I'm confident that it's just random turkeys every spring.
I'm also certain that if this was one of the highly populated areas that I could kill a gobbler on it once a week because they move in and out so much where there are lots of turkeys. If the land around mine wasn't just hay and ag fields only and more good woods and overgrown grass fields and food plots, I'd have more each spring because the nesting would be so much better or more nesting grounds.


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After reading everything in this thread, I tend to agree with you as it pertains to our property.
I think it is random toms each year.
I think we have solid habitat.
I think killing the two toms frequenting the property this year will not necessarily mean I have no toms next year.

This is the most I've ever killed there, and the first time in several years. Next year should be a fun experiment.

 

[woodsman04]

They move 20 miles easy when they move in to my personal place.
This is what I'm trying to say to the original poster. I have a small 65 acre farm that I do habitat on strictly for turkeys and quail. Every spring I've owned the place, there has been no less than one long beard or no more than three using the place during spring. And usually get pictures of 10 hens plus or minus a few with the gobbler or two. I have lots of trail cams, I work up there and listen up there very often, i know what's there and what aint. I'm not just talking about those turkeys exclusively live on my property. They use the entire 2 or 3 square mile block.
When I first got the place and hunted it, I'd kill every long beard I could whether it was one or three. The most I've ever shot off of it was two, and I usually get or got one or the one.
My point is, when I killed the only one, next spring another one was back. When I killed one of the two or three birds, next spring another one two or three was back. There's been years where I didn't kill one of the one two or three, and the next year I'd have one bird back.
They do not always do the same thing all the time, when turkeys split up from their winter flocks they find a suitable nesting area and that's where they are. They aren't stuck and tied down to one area either.
This instances is why you can see huge flocks during deer season but when spring comes you may have only a few or none. At my place we don't have turkeys from September/October through fall and winter and every mid March some will move back in.
I no longer hunt the place to kill the one or only bird. If there are a couple or three up there I will attempt to shoot one, and if I do I let the other one or two be. If I was confident there was only one gobbler, I'd not hunt him. The hens nest up there, brood up there, and around September they leave.

This entire area/community is completely void of turkeys during the winter months. I'm confident in saying that. I'm confident that they move 15-20 miles where ever they come from to nest up there. I'm confident that it's just random turkeys every spring.
I'm also certain that if this was one of the highly populated areas that I could kill a gobbler on it once a week because they move in and out so much where there are lots of turkeys. If the land around mine wasn't just hay and ag fields only and more good woods and overgrown grass fields and food plots, I'd have more each spring because the nesting would be so much better or more nesting grounds.


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After reading everything in this thread, I tend to agree with you as it pertains to our property.
I think it is random toms each year.
I think we have solid habitat.
I think killing the two toms frequenting the property this year will not necessarily mean I have no toms next year.

This is the most I've ever killed there, and the first time in several years. Next year should be a fun experiment.

I'm not there so I can say for certain, but it does sound a lot like the place I own. I do not hunt at my own property exclusively either. I hunt public and a couple of other private places in Tennessee and Alabama. I actually hunt the least on my own land, as to make the turkeys comfortable with breeding and nesting there, and to help keep them closer to my land so that they won't be shot by someone else. But I do take a bird off of it and don't feel bad about it because over the years of the same thing I'm confident more will come back.

Now do I advise always killing every bird you see up there? No of course not, but if you have two or three frequent the area then shoot one.

Also with jakes, we have actually have had a big jake flock winter there, and by spring they gone with the wind. We have seen zero correlation with Jake numbers and longbeard numbers the following years, because these turkeys just randomly move so much and natural mortality can be somewhat high sometimes.


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