Early greenup

[Southern Sportsman]

Mega knows a lot more about turkey biology than I do, but I have a hard time believing it's not some combination of photoperiod and weather. The photoperiod triggers everything, but once triggered it seems like there is a range in which everything happens. Early spring, maybe more breeding/nesting happens towards the beginning of that range.

 

[woodsman04]

I'm a photoperiod believer. But 2012 made me think that there may be anomalies in extreme situations. Maybe the early vegetation and nesting areas had them come in earlier I don't know.
Biology tells you it's all photoperiod. If it was weather, October is basically the same as April weather wise with decreasing day lengths instead of increasing. The increase in day length causes their sex organs to work, not the temp.

2007 was when we had a early green up, about two weeks early, and then like on April 7-8 had a major hard frost (South Central Tennessee) and it killed everything green. No acorns at all that following fall. Turkeys acted normal that year, but that was back when southern Giles and Lawrence actually had turkeys.


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[Uncle Jesse]

Btw, I marked that nest with a stick. She never came back

 

[PalsPal]

Mega knows a lot more about turkey biology than I do, but I have a hard time believing it's not some combination of photoperiod and weather. The photoperiod triggers everything, but once triggered it seems like there is a range in which everything happens. Early spring, maybe more breeding/nesting happens towards the beginning of that range.

Bingo. If it's all photo period driven, then no one has ever been able to explain why birds in areas of the state are behind others, such as the plateau birds usually being a week to 10 days behind middle Tn.

There appears to be some correlation similar to trees blooming later up here.

I'm pretty sure that we're getting the same amount of daylight.

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[elknturkey]

Mega knows a lot more about turkey biology than I do, but I have a hard time believing it's not some combination of photoperiod and weather. The photoperiod triggers everything, but once triggered it seems like there is a range in which everything happens. Early spring, maybe more breeding/nesting happens towards the beginning of that range.

Bingo. If it's all photo period driven, then no one has ever been able to explain why birds in areas of the state are behind others, such as the plateau birds usually being a week to 10 days behind middle Tn.

There appears to be some correlation similar to trees blooming later up here.

I'm pretty sure that we're getting the same amount of daylight.

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Agreed. Biologist try to lump a lot of stuff into a "one size fits all" and they're wrong. Not just with turkeys either.

 

[Uncle Jesse]

This brings back memories, I remember her wings beating my legs and I just stood there for a while. I guess I was trying to figure out if I was still alive or not :lol:

 

[megalomaniac]

All the prior years nest initiation date studies done by multiple states show very little deviation year to year for a given area, which supports photoperiods triggering nest initiation rather than temps.

That may change, as it is much easier to identify nest initiation with GPS backpacks rather than the old radio transmitter backpacks and the data is better.

It's important to realize that while the majority of birds dont initiate nests until later in April in middle TN, there are always a handful of birds that start prematurely (late March).... as well as a handful that dont nest until late June and even early July (many are renesters this late)

What's really interesting is the new research is indicating that only 2 out of 10 nests actually hatch. And the vast majority of those that hatch dont survive. And 100% of broods that have to travel more than 800 yards from nest site to reach suitable bugging habitat die.

I was disappointed last fall only seeing 1 out of 10 hens with poults. In reality, that's way better than 'the new normal'.

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[Uncle Jesse]

2 out of 10 ain't good. Any ideas why

 

[catman529]

What's really interesting is the new research is indicating that only 2 out of 10 nests actually hatch. And the vast majority of those that hatch dont survive. And 100% of broods that have to travel more than 800 yards from nest site to reach suitable bugging habitat die.

Last spring, I spoke with the area manager on a wma where they've been doing part of the UT study on turkeys lately. Well he appeared out of thin air like he does (lmao) and we talked for a few. He said the radio collared hens out there would take their poults and travel over a mile, and the poults wouldn't survive that. So they have been doing some habitat improvements in that particular area to try and keep the birds there after the hatch.

And a side note, this area has no shortage of turkeys, and an excellent hatch almost every year. I think someone let the cat out of the bag when they figured out where the banded gobblers were. I've never seen so many hunters in one small area than I did last year. I've hunted that spot since 2013 and it was never that bad until after the study began and a bunch of birds were banded.


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[megalomaniac]

Catman, I bet the banding has only a small effect on the number of hunters there.

I bet the biggest cause for increased pressure there is the drop in number of birds on other places, esp private lands.

Hunters are going to concentrate where the birds are. Having poor reproduction throughout the rest of TN (and the rest of the southeast as well) will only worsen the pressure on that WMA from in state and out of state hunters.

For example, I'm hunting national forest land tomorrow. It's terrible hunting, with an extremely low population. But I've got 50,000 acres available, and I'm sure there's a bird somewhere on it for me to chase. As opposed to my private lease of 2000 acres which does not have a tom on it yet this year.

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[Bgoodman30]

What's really interesting is the new research is indicating that only 2 out of 10 nests actually hatch. And the vast majority of those that hatch dont survive. And 100% of broods that have to travel more than 800 yards from nest site to reach suitable bugging habitat die.

Last spring, I spoke with the area manager on a wma where they've been doing part of the UT study on turkeys lately. Well he appeared out of thin air like he does (lmao) and we talked for a few. He said the radio collared hens out there would take their poults and travel over a mile, and the poults wouldn't survive that. So they have been doing some habitat improvements in that particular area to try and keep the birds there after the hatch.

And a side note, this area has no shortage of turkeys, and an excellent hatch almost every year. I think someone let the cat out of the bag when they figured out where the banded gobblers were. I've never seen so many hunters in one small area than I did last year. I've hunted that spot since 2013 and it was never that bad until after the study began and a bunch of birds were banded.


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I have seen WMA managers bush hogging prime nesting habitat during turkey season in Middle TN for no good reason... I was so astonished by this I called and chatted with them about it. I think it was around 2013 actually.. I am glad they are waking up to the fact that they will have to start managing for turkeys..

 

[catman529]

Catman, I bet the banding has only a small effect on the number of hunters there.

I bet the biggest cause for increased pressure there is the drop in number of birds on other places, esp private lands.

Hunters are going to concentrate where the birds are. Having poor reproduction throughout the rest of TN (and the rest of the southeast as well) will only worsen the pressure on that WMA from in state and out of state hunters.

For example, I'm hunting national forest land tomorrow. It's terrible hunting, with an extremely low population. But I've got 50,000 acres available, and I'm sure there's a bird somewhere on it for me to chase. As opposed to my private lease of 2000 acres which does not have a tom on it yet this year.

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that's part of it, but it's not the only wma that has a lot of birds. Far from it. Middle TN pressure has gone up a lot lately, but that one particular spot where they banded some birds has gone insane. I remember when they started the study they were very secretive about it, and I couldn't even figure out where they trapped the birds. Give it a couple years for word to get out, and there's 2+ trucks parked in a small area every day of the first week of season. Could be worse I know. But wasn't what it was just a few years ago.


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[Levee Jumper]

A lot of people just hunt where other people have done the scouting for them. :stir:

 

[Andy S.]

^^^^^ I hear you, internet scout mind you. Maybe others will read between the lines and get the hint.

 

[Roost 1]

op:

 

[Southern Sportsman]

All the prior years nest initiation date studies done by multiple states show very little deviation year to year for a given area, which supports photoperiods triggering nest initiation rather than temps.

That may change, as it is much easier to identify nest initiation with GPS backpacks rather than the old radio transmitter backpacks and the data is better.

It's important to realize that while the majority of birds dont initiate nests until later in April in middle TN, there are always a handful of birds that start prematurely (late March).... as well as a handful that dont nest until late June and even early July (many are renesters this late)

What's really interesting is the new research is indicating that only 2 out of 10 nests actually hatch. And the vast majority of those that hatch dont survive. And 100% of broods that have to travel more than 800 yards from nest site to reach suitable bugging habitat die.

I was disappointed last fall only seeing 1 out of 10 hens with poults. In reality, that's way better than 'the new normal'.

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I just stumbled on the 2012 summer brood report. I'd seen it before but just thought about this discussion. We know 2012 was exceptionally warm with an unusually early spring. The 2012 shows noticeably earlier peak nest initiation compared to other "average" years. It's a small sample size, but it seems to support that weather/early green-up plays a role in earlier nesting.

https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/twra/ ... t-2012.pdf

 

[megalomaniac]

Most of our adult hens are setting currently. About 10 days ahead of what's typical for south MS. Gobblers are starting to roam, starting to follow the jennies, although I dont think the jennies are quite ready to breed just yet.

These observations combined with the latest season calendar opening dates in TN leads me to think it's going to be an incredible 1st week of the season in TN

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[th88]

Green up is 7-10 days ahead in the northern tier of Mississippi. Haven't noticed anything 'sped up' with the turkeys yet, but am expecting it to be a bit.

 

[arkwaterfowler]

I can tell you that the birds are 7-10 days ahead this year in north central Tennessee. The gobblers are all split up with hen groups and a few were gobbling on the ground after fly down. I do believe in photoperiod but local weather can steer the activity one week to the next. Just think about how cold early Novembers seem to get the bucks on their feet. I think the same is true for earlier warm temperatures in the spring for turkeys. This years opinion was based on Saturday's hunt with my daughter on the farm I have hunted since 08.

 

[woodsman04]

I think the only thing that may help them "start" earlier into nesting is vegetation height. With it being warmer and more rain the weeds are taller giving them nesting habitat early.


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