• Help Support TNDeer:

From Dr. Harpers lips to your ears... Must listen.

scn said:
Can you think of any REASONABLE scenario where delaying the start is detrimental to the flock?

I didn't think so.
Click to expand...

I don't know why don't you call Dr. Harper and ask him. If it doesn't help turkeys produce more turkeys why do you care?
 
Bgoodman30 said:
I don't know why don't you call Dr. Harper and ask him. If it doesn't help turkeys produce more turkeys why do you care?
Click to expand...
There is no reason for me to call Dr. Harper, because frankly, I don't think I would fully trust what he said.

I am in no way implying that he would manipulate data in a major way. But, for many years TWRA and its Commissioners have been a MAJOR source of funding for the research studies done by his department. I think that it is only human nature that if there is no obvious direction for the data, that he and his researchers would side with whatever way the wind is blowing from the Agency and Commissioners. And, I have been told by some folks that probably would know that there are some very influential Commissioners that are bemoaning the decrease in the nonresident license $$$ that the season delay has caused. The want those nonresident license dollars back even if it adversely impacts their resident WMA hunters or the turkey flock. Thus the wind is certainly blowing to say that the delay isn't helping.

There has recently been some data shown on this site that suggests the delay gave a 20+% increase in nesting success in counties with the delay. That may be negligible to some, but, I will be on the side of the turkey flock over the whiners and nonresidents.

While you can argue some of the data interpretation and whether it is or isn't helping, there is no reasonable argument that the delay is detrimental to the turkey flock. After well over a decade of gross mismanagement of turkeys by TWRA, I think the flock deserves a chance to recover a little, even if some hunters don't like it. But, in this world, money usually runs things, so I highly anticipate we will see a return to mismanagement to regain those $$$$.

Since I am probably year to year at this point in the game, there is really no reason for me to care about the future. Just kill them all. But, when it goes further down the toilet (and you don't have to look at many graphs to see that) I hope some of you will realize you were part of the reasons for decline.
 
Last edited:
scn said:
The want those nonresident license dollars back even if it adversely impacts their resident WMA hunters or the turkey flock.
Click to expand...
If I were a TN resident public land hunter, this is THE reason I would be calling my local commissioner to keep season dates unchanged.

Even Harper in his interview stated that the gobblers are being overharvested too early in the season and alluded to making those WMAs draw hunts.

Lots of MS residents unhappy nearly all of our WMAs have gone to draw hunts because of increased numbers of turkey hunters/ demand over the past decade.
 
megalomaniac said:
If I were a TN resident public land hunter, this is THE reason I would be calling my local commissioner to keep season dates unchanged.

Even Harper in his interview stated that the gobblers are being overharvested too early in the season and alluded to making those WMAs draw hunts.

Lots of MS residents unhappy nearly all of our WMAs have gone to draw hunts because of increased numbers of turkey hunters/ demand over the past decade.
Click to expand...
I agree that some wmas should be drawn or quotas. I hunt a qouta WMA some that's successful I believe for that reason. I also think there is too much emphasis on statewide regulations from what happens on wmas which only encompass around 5% of TN land.
 
Bgoodman30 said:
I don't think I need to answer that question for you……
Click to expand...
No, and I don't want to come across as a d*ck. Though you and I disagree on parts of this, I appreciate the way you discuss it. But we all tend to side with the authorities that support our beliefs.

I'll admit that my opinions are evolving some. I think it's likely that predation is a larger problem than season dates. But that doesn't mean that the delay is worthless. And it seems way too early to have reached that conclusion.
 
scn said:
There is no reason for me to call Dr. Harper, because frankly, I don't think I would fully trust what he said.

I am in no way implying that he would manipulate data in a major way. But, for many years TWRA and its Commissioners have been a MAJOR source of funding for the research studies done by his department. I think that it is only human nature that if there is no obvious direction for the data, that he and his researchers would side with whatever way the wind is blowing from the Agency and Commissioners. And, I have been told by some folks that probably would know that there are some very influential Commissioners that are bemoaning the decrease in the nonresident license $$$ that the season delay has caused. The want those nonresident license dollars back even if it adversely impacts their resident WMA hunters or the turkey flock. Thus the wind is certainly blowing to say that the delay isn't helping.

There has recently been some data shown on this site that suggests the delay gave a 20+% increase in nesting success in counties with the delay. That may be negligible to some, but, I will be on the side of the turkey flock over the whiners and nonresidents.

While you can argue some of the data interpretation and whether it is or isn't helping, there is no reasonable argument that the delay is detrimental to the turkey flock. After well over a decade of gross mismanagement of turkeys by TWRA, I think the flock deserves a chance to recover a little, even if some hunters don't like it. But, in this world, money usually runs things, so I highly anticipate we will see a return to mismanagement to regain those $$$$.

Since I am probably year to year at this point in the game, there is really no reason for me to care about the future. Just kill them all. But, when it goes further down the toilet (and you don't have to look at many graphs to see that) I hope some of you will realize you were part of the reasons for decline.
Click to expand...
I can see that maybe his funding could sway his "science" but some of his recommendations don't really coincide with what TWRA is proposing. He also recommended a one week delay rather than the old season which could have started in March closest to April 1. Also he recommended for draws and quotas on WMAs which obviously isn't going to help their license sales.

It's interesting to see how much distrust some of you have with Harper and TWRA when the numbers say otherwise… The numbers show this is one best managed and successful turkey hunting states in the SE and maybe the country but this is all in spite of TWRAs gross mismanagement? Some of the other states flocks are in the crapper right now and they had lower limits to begin with… Also he mentioned one of the only state agencies put forth the effort and money to see what the heck is going on and also made big changes even when it negatively affected their bottom line. It's also interesting to me how much influence some of y'all believe hunting and regulation has on turkey reproduction when the biologist tell us time and time again that we are not the issue. We can't control Mother Nature some times…

The 3 southern counties took a nosedive and showing sign of bouncing back. I will reserve my judgement until we have final statewide numbers from 23 but it's apparent Harper knows more than he's putting fwd and it's not good. You and I know that statewide increase isn't 20% but apparently lower than 22 pre delay. He said it was some of the lowest in his study period... My personal observations seem to mimic his data points.

Also as a turkey hunter, landowner and manager I don't think my gobbler harvest has caused any sort of change in production whatsoever… And just maybe the habitat I have created might have produced more than I took.. Well except for those hens I used to shoot in the fall way back when…. I take full responsibility for that.
 
Southern Sportsman said:
No, and I don't want to come across as a d*ck. Though you and I disagree on parts of this, I appreciate the way you discuss it. But we all tend to side with the authorities that support our beliefs.

I'll admit that my opinions are evolving some. I think it's likely that predation is a larger problem than season dates. But that doesn't mean that the delay is worthless. And it seems way too early to have reached that conclusion.
Click to expand...

Yeah like I said earlier I think PPH is the best measure of production. Although I'm afraid a large part of the problem is those poults aren't reaching adulthood. If the number increases .1 to 2.3 then by all means keep the delay. If not then well back to the drawing board.
 
Southern Sportsman said:
What if the delay's impact on reproduction is inconclusive, but it doesn't hurt populations, doesn't reduce opportunity, and actually results in a big increase in hunter success. IF that were the case, why would we change it back?
Click to expand...

Well by all means let's keep it.
 
Southern Sportsman said:
What if the delay's impact on reproduction is inconclusive, but it doesn't hurt populations, doesn't reduce opportunity, and actually results in a big increase in hunter success. IF that were the case, why would we change it back?
Click to expand...
MONEY is the only logical answer.
As always, follow the money, as it most often provides the answer to most questions.

TWRA gets a lot more revenue by opening turkey season earlier. Lots more revenue to TWRA can mean more "funding" for more turkey studies.

Even non-hunting politicians would like TN's turkey season to open earlier solely because of the "money" that gets spent in TN by non-resident hunters.
 
Shanman said:
Fur brought $ in the 80's, it isn't worth squat now, thousands of rusty traps hanging from nails present day. Fanning, strutter decoys, and bookface were not a thing back in the day. Now add the increase in acres being purchased by non hunters that won't let anyone on their property. Times have changed guys, it's just holes in a bucket…..not one single fix. Moving the start date was 1 hole plugged…. many more to fill. I'll say it till I'm blue in the face, advisory councils made up of RESPECTED hunters from EACH region that have the OUTDOORSMEN'S ear need to be implemented, not just a couple of biologists, especially if they are ready to retire and don't want to rock the boat.
Again, JMHO
Click to expand...
Perfectly said I agree 100%
 
Southern Sportsman said:
I agree. 2023 Status Report below.
Click to expand...

54K gobblers... Wow. Good to see low numbers that say they fanned or reaped. 54k gobblers and still plenty around this season and good numbers taken so far.. Mismanagement or success story you decide...?
 
I haven't listened to this podcast yet but I do plan to. For a bit I started to drift towards the fence line on whether delaying the opener is a good idea or not. But I'm back to being in favor of it.

At the very least, leave it in place a few more years to get some meaningful data. You can't just keep moving it back and forth and have any real idea of the efficacy.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top