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Gobbler density.

Out of 6 hunts on 6 different private properties so far this year, I have heard 1 gobble on the neighboring property on 1 hunt. Have seen a total of 13 hens on said hunts and ZERO toms on the properties I hunt. Depressing to say the least.
 
Our lease is 830 acres and I've been there twice this year. Opening morning I saw 5 longbeards and heard at least 4 more. The second time, Good Friday, I heard 4 longbeards and saw 2 jakes. Hunted my neighbors this afternoon for the first time and saw 4 hens, 2 jakes, and another I thought was a jake but may be a short bearded gobbler. I could have killed him but thought it was 3 jakes until he got out of range and went into strut with a full fan.
 
I have 8 camera sets on 2000 / 2500 acres in Stewart county. This property has been 50% clear cut and has been terribly abused and neglected. The rest is about equally divided between hardwood hollows (steep) and 5 to 8 year thickets with a few clover or rye plots. I scout and adjust 1 day each week and there have already been 7 birds taken. I am confident there are easily another 20 mature gobblers that are active strut to and gobbling. That being said don't over look the silent gobblers. The old birds that have been pushed away from the groups by younger birds or whipped by a bunch of jakes or called in and not killed a time or two. They learn to be silent and hunting them can be a challenge! I have located 4 in TN and KY this year that I will hunt after the guys I work for get there's or give up.
Trigg county Ky 1600 acres in 3 farms easily 1.5 active gobbling birds per 100 acres and a big old bird that regularly struts behind my house but never gobbles.
Large groups of hens and ample supply of jakes on all the farms I oversee.
The only thing I see different in these farms is the Stewart county birds are thinner than I expected. Large frame but smaller breasts and narrow thighs. They look to seriously have to work for their food where as the KY birds are full and thick, easily 30% difference in net meat.
 
Popcorn said:
I have 8 camera sets on 2000 / 2500 acres in Stewart county. This property has been 50% clear cut and has been terribly abused and neglected. The rest is about equally divided between hardwood hollows (steep) and 5 to 8 year thickets with a few clover or rye plots. I scout and adjust 1 day each week and there have already been 7 birds taken. I am confident there are easily another 20 mature gobblers that are active strut to and gobbling. That being said don't over look the silent gobblers. The old birds that have been pushed away from the groups by younger birds or whipped by a bunch of jakes or called in and not killed a time or two. They learn to be silent and hunting them can be a challenge! I have located 4 in TN and KY this year that I will hunt after the guys I work for get there's or give up.
Trigg county Ky 1600 acres in 3 farms easily 1.5 active gobbling birds per 100 acres and a big old bird that regularly struts behind my house but never gobbles.
Large groups of hens and ample supply of jakes on all the farms I oversee.
The only thing I see different in these farms is the Stewart county birds are thinner than I expected. Large frame but smaller breasts and narrow thighs. They look to seriously have to work for their food where as the KY birds are full and thick, easily 30% difference in net meat.
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This is amazing, considering the area (LBL) between Stewart county and Trigg County is practically void of turkeys.
 
TheLBLman said:
I currently have a fair idea how many long-bearded Toms are on a particular 3,000-plus acre private tract of good contiguous turkey habitat in Stewart County. Week before the season opened, I estimated the density at 10 to 20 Toms (2 yrs or older), which would have been 1 Tom per every 150 to 300 acres. But they were very "bunched" and not uniformly distributed across this acreage.

Just to be clear, am referring to 1 yr old males as Jakes; 2 yrs or older as Toms.
Varying from year to year depending on the prior year's nesting success & survival,
the number of Jakes can be either more or less the number of Toms.

Two weeks into the TN statewide season, I'm now more accurately estimating the density at 6 to 12 Toms, or 1 Tom per every 250 to 500 acres. They are now less "bunched" and more uniformly distributed across this acreage.

But when the season ends, I expect there to be only 3 to 6 survivors on this 3,000 plus acres. The ones of those which ultimately survive until the next spring + the surviving Jakes, will become the expected 6 to 12 Toms available come Spring 2023.

Keep in mind an estimate is just that, and it is fluid, and changing,
seasonally and annually.

But for the past many years, it's been trending downward in areas that a decade and farther back had a much greater density than now. What's most ironic is the habitat in many these areas appears to be more conducive to better nesting success now than then. Same can be said for the quail, which have nearly become extinct, despite habitat improvements.

The bottom line is that many areas cannot sustain an ongoing turkey harvest
of even 1 Tom per hunter annually. Doesn't matter if we're talking 1 hunter on 300 acres or 30 hunters on 3,000 acres. The resource is limited.
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I tried to get this across to some of the guys that hunt the leases around me, both for deer and turkey. Property that borders mine is 200 acres and has 4 guys that hunt it. It's great for both deer and turkey, but they all want to kill a bird. The property on the other side of that one is 300 acres and 4-6 guys from Chattanooga hunt it and they feed corn. Even during turkey season, when they aren't there, the deer and turkey will be in the yard of the trailer they stay in. Drive by it a bunch and most times there were birds in the yard…until this year when I haven't seen a hunter there all year and I have more turkeys in our holler than the past 5 combined. I don't see any of the guys on the big lease (few thousand acres) that borders the back of my property so I don't know how it goes there. Point being, like LBL said, too many guys hunting a dwindling resource. Reducing the bag limit will reduce hunter numbers and hunter effort in the woods. "Limit is 3 so I'll just kill two" is not conserving the resource when even killing one is too many sometimes. I went from killing four a year with tons of birds left over to two total in 4 seasons. People see the bag limit and ignore everything that's happening to the turkeys, especially when there's so many guys that say "if it's legal, do it" or say that "the population isn't declining, you just don't know how to hunt! I've got plenty of birds!".
 
Bgoodman30 said:
I am just curious what kind of gobbler numbers you guys are encountering on private land? Like known gobbling LB's on your side?

The jake numbers are encouraging but right now I am looking at one bird per 200 acres between 5 different farms in prime areas in Middle TN 2 died early season so now 2 total roosting on 800 acres.. Its hard to know what's typical anymore because I still know some farms that are loaded?
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Heard 2 sound off with one less as of Good Friday but the week before heard 7 different toms on approximately 650 acres. Pretty much concentrated along the creek bottom here in west Tennessee. Nowhere near the population that I've had in past years.
 
Giles and Lincoln are not doing good.
Not a single tom or jake has been seen on the property I hunt in Lincoln, or the adjacent lands. A total of 3 hens over 400 acres, that just a few years ago would have flocks of 20-30 hens and multiple toms.
Talked to the neighbor and he said he hasn't heard a single one this year. I'm not going again this year. The lone tom or jake, if he is out there, gets a pass from me.
Very troubling.
 
I'm in White County living on 130 acres for about 15 years and bordered by agriculture on 3 sides as well as lots of other pasture lands. Mine is all wooded except for the 1-acre food plot I can see from the house and our pond being the main water source which I can also see from the house. PRIME turkey habitat to say the least. Most years I don't turkey hunt because it's my busiest time of the year in my business, so nearly zero pressure except for the juvenile hunt I allow NWTF every year (and they always get one, then the hunting stops). That being said, total numbers have fluctuated over the years but very clearly a significant downward trend. I have a picture from a few years ago of 95 turkeys in the front yard in late winter. This year, I have 5 Toms and 11 Jakes and oddly very few hens...maybe 20 and that's pushing it. Keep in mind this is a huge safety zone with tons of food and light hunting pressure on the bordering properties. Funny, as I type this there's one in the front yard gobbling. Anyway, just echoing almost everyone else's observations from the security of a safety zone...sad.
 
I live on 20 acres in Wilson Co. From Jan-mid March I had 10 longbeards frequent my food plot (standing corn left over from deer season). I knew they would bust up the closer season got and they did. I'd love to know how far they went and spread out. Ive not heard 1 gobble within earshot since season started. I have no idea the density numbers but judging by gobbles heard, 0 per 500+- acres. Much different than 10 years ago.
 
Sounds like there might be both a supply and demand problem. Not only have reproduction numbers faltered, but hunters may simply be killing too many per acre. A later season start, lowered limit, shorter season, even modifying legal hunting methods doesn't address this. People hunt where they have access to hunt be it public or private whether it's 20ac out the back door or 20,000ac of national forest. 1 tom per 4000 ac is 1 tom per 4000 ac. Period, full stop, end of discussion. If somebody kills him, 100% legal, no trespassing involved...that's it.

I don't have a good recommendation for how to address hunter density vs. gobbler density. There seems to be a significant mismatch in some areas.

Good topic Bgoodman.
 
megalomaniac said:
It's a huntable population... just not a good hunt.

Most MS WMAs average around 1 killed per 2000 acres or so. Around 1 killed per 4000 acres in southeast MS WMAs. But kill numbers only loosely trend with overall population. It's fun to look at the 'man days' required to kill a bird. 30 to 40 days hunting to kill a bird is average here, with some locales requiring 90 to 100 man days of hunting to kill a single bird!

But then the flip side is also true... there are tiny properties that have a TON of birds. There is an old fellow a couple miles down the road from one of my farms who has had fed birds so long in his yard he can open his back door, call them, and they come running to him. He has about 60 acres and it's no hunting anywhere nearby. These birds are way too visible, don't shy away from cars or people, and are basically pets. I love having them near, because I can use that flock to judge how birds are behaving a certain day. At one point a couple weeks ago, he had 12 adult toms in his yard.

Just a couple miles away, I've only had 1 tom on my 220ac farm this season (and I'm leaving him alone because he and 4 hens have started using the property I've improved with food plots and road/ trail management hoping to get a flock started there.).
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We average about 1 bird killed per 10 hours hunting here just looking back over the last few years.
 
Boll Weevil said:
Sounds like there might be both a supply and demand problem. Not only have reproduction numbers faltered, but hunters may simply be killing too many per acre. A later season start, lowered limit, shorter season, even modifying legal hunting methods doesn't address this. People hunt where they have access to hunt be it public or private whether it's 20ac out the back door or 20,000ac of national forest. 1 tom per 4000 ac is 1 tom per 4000 ac. Period, full stop, end of discussion. If somebody kills him, 100% legal, no trespassing involved...that's it.

I don't have a good recommendation for how to address hunter density vs. gobbler density. There seems to be a significant mismatch in some areas.

Good topic Bgoodman.
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Biggest thing I see is human pressure.

Man - every 40 acre farm in the county seems to get hunted. It's a lot of pressure to put on birds trying to reproduce.
 
DeerCamp said:
Biggest thing I see is human pressure.

Man - every 40 acre farm in the county seems to get hunted. It's a lot of pressure to put on birds trying to reproduce.
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Yeah its bad. I heard 6-7 shots opening morning but only heard one bird gobbling..
 
Bgoodman30 said:
Yeah its bad. I heard 6-7 shots opening morning but only heard one bird gobbling..
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I have no doubt that over-hunting impacts many geographic areas in TN.

Managing limits by entire units, often comprising 20+ counties, is like trying to manage finances by only looking at how much you eat out.

I'm generally a fan of TWRA, but they are undermanned and in some cases improperly motivated.
 

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