woodsman87
Well-Known Member
Well each year would be hard and asking alot, but at least they can make changes every few years if needed.
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Hardest season i have had in 12 years
- Thread starter REN
- Start date
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
If done right.... removing EVERY gobbler EVERY single spring will not affect the population. Sure, you'll never kill anything older than a 2 y/o bird, but it won't affect the population one bit.
What IS killing our population is that we are trying to remove every gobbler every spring IN THE WRONG WAY... First, jakes must be outlawed- they are required to fertilize eggs the following spring. Only approx 20% of jakes are sexually mature their first spring and capable of successfully fertilizing hens. So we cannot rely on them to fertilize hens after the adult male segment of the population is removed. Second, gobblers CANNOT be removed before hens have established nests to ensure maximum fertilization of eggs prior to setting. Sure, one successful mating CAN result in fertilized eggs up to 2 weeks after mating, but fertility declines very rapidly after 7 days of mating. And the more mating with more gobblers helps ensure an increased genetic diversity as well as improved fertility. It would also be nice if a gobbler remained available to service hens that are forced to renest due to predation. It is not uncommon for a single hen to produce as many as 80 eggs in the spring if they need to... I'm up to 24 from one jenny so far this year with my pet wilds, and the 3 of them haven't showed any sign of slowing down at all.
So... in other words... the population is actually controlled by the number of females (assuming gobblers ARE allowed to fertilize all available hens capable of reproduction (most jennies in the wild are not going to nest their first season) ). Since turkey reproduction and flock expansion are population INDEPENDENT (which means that, unlike deer and many other mammals in which the fertility of the animals decrease as the population increases and reaches carrying capacity), there IS NO maximum carrying capacity for turkeys.. you simply CANNOT have too many. Sure, there is a social carrying capacity- what the general population is willing to tolerate (farmers HATE them at time of spring bean planting or winter wheat planting), but there is no BIOLOGICAL reason to ever remove a hen from the population.
For those reasons, I have LONG been a proponent of pushing season opener back to mid April. This will allow most adult hens to successfully mate and establish an initial nest before gobblers are killed. I would also advocate elimination of all jake harvest in the spring except for juveniles to ensure there are adult males in the population to fertilize hens the following year. Furthermore, since there is no biological reason to remove hens except in cases where the population exceeds social carrying capacity, I would eliminate all hen killing except in cases of crop depredation or nusicance cases.
As far as spring limits go, I don't feel terribly strongly on the matter if the above changes were implemented. Personally, I'd favor a reduction, mostly because it would allow more birds to reach full maturity and 'trophy' status, but the population would do just fine with the above changes and remove all limits on spring gobblers completely.
What IS killing our population is that we are trying to remove every gobbler every spring IN THE WRONG WAY... First, jakes must be outlawed- they are required to fertilize eggs the following spring. Only approx 20% of jakes are sexually mature their first spring and capable of successfully fertilizing hens. So we cannot rely on them to fertilize hens after the adult male segment of the population is removed. Second, gobblers CANNOT be removed before hens have established nests to ensure maximum fertilization of eggs prior to setting. Sure, one successful mating CAN result in fertilized eggs up to 2 weeks after mating, but fertility declines very rapidly after 7 days of mating. And the more mating with more gobblers helps ensure an increased genetic diversity as well as improved fertility. It would also be nice if a gobbler remained available to service hens that are forced to renest due to predation. It is not uncommon for a single hen to produce as many as 80 eggs in the spring if they need to... I'm up to 24 from one jenny so far this year with my pet wilds, and the 3 of them haven't showed any sign of slowing down at all.
So... in other words... the population is actually controlled by the number of females (assuming gobblers ARE allowed to fertilize all available hens capable of reproduction (most jennies in the wild are not going to nest their first season) ). Since turkey reproduction and flock expansion are population INDEPENDENT (which means that, unlike deer and many other mammals in which the fertility of the animals decrease as the population increases and reaches carrying capacity), there IS NO maximum carrying capacity for turkeys.. you simply CANNOT have too many. Sure, there is a social carrying capacity- what the general population is willing to tolerate (farmers HATE them at time of spring bean planting or winter wheat planting), but there is no BIOLOGICAL reason to ever remove a hen from the population.
For those reasons, I have LONG been a proponent of pushing season opener back to mid April. This will allow most adult hens to successfully mate and establish an initial nest before gobblers are killed. I would also advocate elimination of all jake harvest in the spring except for juveniles to ensure there are adult males in the population to fertilize hens the following year. Furthermore, since there is no biological reason to remove hens except in cases where the population exceeds social carrying capacity, I would eliminate all hen killing except in cases of crop depredation or nusicance cases.
As far as spring limits go, I don't feel terribly strongly on the matter if the above changes were implemented. Personally, I'd favor a reduction, mostly because it would allow more birds to reach full maturity and 'trophy' status, but the population would do just fine with the above changes and remove all limits on spring gobblers completely.
Setterman
Well-Known Member
Mega, I like your ideas a lot. And agree 1,000,000% on the jakes. Let kids shoot one, but outlaw them for everyone else. Hens should always be illegal, I've ranted about the stupid bearded hen thing for years
On the hay cutting, there is no effort by TWRA to educate farmers, or incentivize them to delay their first cut. Most years a week or two would make a huge difference, and wouldn't impact the farmers at all. I put the blame for this squarely on TWRA for doing anything to educate farmers, and throw the NwTF in there as well, but since the NWTF does nothing other then banquets I wouldn't expect anything different from them.
On the hay cutting, there is no effort by TWRA to educate farmers, or incentivize them to delay their first cut. Most years a week or two would make a huge difference, and wouldn't impact the farmers at all. I put the blame for this squarely on TWRA for doing anything to educate farmers, and throw the NwTF in there as well, but since the NWTF does nothing other then banquets I wouldn't expect anything different from them.
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
Mega,
What you say about maximizing the number of hens was a top goal several years ago when trying to increase the population on my farm; I agree 100%. The tradeoff is some seriously henned-up toms but I'll take that tradeoff with absolutely no qualms vs. the alternative (far fewer gobblers).
I do believe some areas are at a real crossroads where TWRA and hunters may be forced to consider all that is mentioned above: season length, limits, season dates, harvest methods etc. I think it's good that at least folks are talking about the possibility of an issue and now the question becomes, "So what are we gonna do about it?"
What you say about maximizing the number of hens was a top goal several years ago when trying to increase the population on my farm; I agree 100%. The tradeoff is some seriously henned-up toms but I'll take that tradeoff with absolutely no qualms vs. the alternative (far fewer gobblers).
I do believe some areas are at a real crossroads where TWRA and hunters may be forced to consider all that is mentioned above: season length, limits, season dates, harvest methods etc. I think it's good that at least folks are talking about the possibility of an issue and now the question becomes, "So what are we gonna do about it?"
I just want to point out that you and I have been hunting together twice, and we've put 2 birds on the ground. Maybe you need to hunt with a Pro more often. 
woodsman87
Well-Known Member
The best thing season could do would to be shorten it, or delay it a week to ten days to insure all hens have been bred.
Gobbler limits have no impact on population if done correctly. Need to abolish hen killing, at least the hen catastrophe in fall. One hen may not, but has the potential to produce 10 poults, which the next year 4 of those could produce ten more, and so on.
Ill gladly trade henned up turkeys for more birds.
Fact is, I despise the phrase "henned up" it is an excuse in most cases. After the second week of the season, there will normally be a time of day when they lose their hen.
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Gobbler limits have no impact on population if done correctly. Need to abolish hen killing, at least the hen catastrophe in fall. One hen may not, but has the potential to produce 10 poults, which the next year 4 of those could produce ten more, and so on.
Ill gladly trade henned up turkeys for more birds.
Fact is, I despise the phrase "henned up" it is an excuse in most cases. After the second week of the season, there will normally be a time of day when they lose their hen.
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megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Boll Weevil":nhlw5txv said:
The answer is very simple... absolutely nothing with our current statewide turkey biologist.
oh wait... let's focus on the 3 counties where the turkey population has declined, and harvests are HALF of what they were back in 2006. Lets get tissue samples from those birds, and compare them to a county where populations are thriving.... lets say Bedford... oh, SH!T... we didn't even realize our comparison 'normal' county has already experienced a nearly 50% reduction in kill since the late 90's....
it's stuff like that that makes me realize as good as TWRA has been in general as an organization, their turkey division is absolutely clueless and we need change at the top. Any CEO would have been fired a decade ago if a company's finances had degraded so fast on thier watch. The comparison is fair.
woodsman87
Well-Known Member
I believe that i read that only 28% of jakes are fertile, but i believe that first year hens are as good as older hens.
I do not wish for them to lower limits, if they do anything, delay season about 10 days for a few years.
More importantly, educate hunters, farmers, and outdoorsman how to manage for wild turkeys. Nesting and brooding habitat is vital. If we could just get two years in a row of good poult recruitment, it may start to stabilize and go up.
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I do not wish for them to lower limits, if they do anything, delay season about 10 days for a few years.
More importantly, educate hunters, farmers, and outdoorsman how to manage for wild turkeys. Nesting and brooding habitat is vital. If we could just get two years in a row of good poult recruitment, it may start to stabilize and go up.
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megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Sorry REN, we may have hijacked your thread... I started a new one in case this goes on forever 
