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Land Management Skill vs Hunting Skill

BSK said:
Even when mature bucks make up 10-12% of the entire buck population, mature bucks kills are very low, and in a group-hunting situation, it is usually the same one or two hunters who make the mature buck kills every year. Those one or two hunters are the most skilled at choosing stand locations.
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Having been in a very large TN hunting club now for decades, yes, it's about the same 20% of the hunters who have killed 80% of the fully mature bucks taken.

But I believe this is not just, nor even mainly, because of their stand locations.

One of the main reasons may be because those most consistently successful mature buck hunters were voluntarily willing to give a pass to those really "nice" 3 1/2-yr-old bucks most hunters just didn't have the will to give a pass.

Very often, a fully mature buck will follow the trail of a younger (sometimes also mature) buck. But that older buck may be a couple hundred yards behind, several minutes behind, and by shooting the buck ahead of him, the hunter never knows there was an older one coming along shortly.

Even when "following" (an older buck following a younger) is not the case, once a particular hunter kills any or "a" buck, that hunter often backs off on, or simply quits hunting for that year.

There is also the issue of those individuals who pass up the most bucks are in the best position to see those same bucks in the subsequent year(s), a year later when that super-nice 3 1/2 is now a top-end 4 1/2 (or older) buck.

To more degree than many seem to think,
we create our own realities.
 
BSK said:
I do understand many who express skepticism about the "skill" needed to hunt intensively managed land, but just because land is being managed doesn't mean most deer are shot at long range over open fields and food plots. I would consider my place pretty intensively managed, but as I've stated before, the average MZ/gun kill is at 35 yards. That's almost bow range. Most of my mature buck kills have been within 20 yards.
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I'll be the first to admit I was one of those skeptics. Having primarily a public land bow hunting background, I always thought these guys killing private land big bucks had it easy because of the property they were hunting. As long as I believed that, it was easy to dismiss them as not being "real" hunters. And now that I am managing & hunting my own dirt I realize just how wrong I was. That mindset was robbing me of acknowledging the holes in my own hunting game, giving me an excuse to not get the success I wanted. Having my own ground to set up any way I pleased really had me choking on crow feathers because I've learned the hard way it's nothing I thought it would be.

Deer don't do what I want just because I offered them something I think they want. And big mature bucks don't line up to sacrifice themselves to slaughter. Nothing I imagined about managing my own hunting paradise has proved to be reality. It very much is just as tough as public land, which I still hunt regularly. But like the sayings go, you don't know what you don't know.....until you do, then hindsight is 20/20. My land is a classroom and the deer are my teachers. The lessons learned apply to any land, pressured public or managed private utopia.
 
redblood said:
Thats my point. In isolated pockets, where you have a high number of mature deer, it takes very little skill to kill one. Now public land, is a different story. The guys who can consistently do it there are a cut above
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It's not even necessarily having a high number of mature deer. My niece in Ohio is middle school age now and she's killed several P&Y bucks. It's not because she's a good hunter. It's not because there are a lot of big bucks to choose from. It's because her dad puts her in a blind with a crossbow sitting 20yds from a corn pile the bucks are conditioned to visit. My property by comparison has a much better herd age structure with multiple mature bucks any given season. I could turn her loose to go hunt by herself and she'd never even be able to kill a button buck because there are no blinds and bait. She'd be lost, figuratively and probably literally. She hasn't the slightest clue about hunting but has a more impressive trophy wall than many lifelong "good" hunters I know.
 
It's not a contest. If you want to make it one, you are gonna drive yourself crazy with caveats. Some hunters are more skilled than others. Some hunters have other advantages, better properties, more time to hunt, better shooting skills, better equipment, more experience and even the money to travel to places with better bucks. Maybe they have a wall full of B&C bucks shot in a pen or shot on a game preserve illegally. The list goes on. If you want to compete, compete against yourself.
 
I think the real answer is..... Why compare yourself to anyone else? That way lies misery. There is ALWAYS someone with a better property, more money, bigger bucks. WHY do you feel the need to compare with others? What insecurity lies behind this?

Instead, compare yourself to your past self. Are you having more fun this season than previous seasons?
Are you trying new techniques? Hunting with friends? Are you focusing on enjoyment rather than inches of horn, or what someone else is doing? Did you enjoy hunting in the past, but not so much now? What changed?

Here is a little secret. Nobody really cares about the bucks you kill. Seriously. Kill a whopper at deer camp. Everyone will oooh and ahhh for about 5 minutes. Then they go get a beer and ask when dinner will be ready while you are at the skinning shed cleaning your deer. You will be lucky if the rest of the guys save you a beer, let alone prepare you a kings feast as the bestest hunter in all the world !

As to QDMA, property management, growing deer, whatever you want to call it. If you are ONLY doing it to measure horns, weiners, or egos then I pity you. If you are doing it for the ENJOYMENT of doing it, then you are onto something. Farming can be fun if expensive and a lot of work.

At the end of the day, hunting is supposed to be FUN. Let go of all the jealousy, insecurity, and ego, THEN figure out what you really enjoy about hunting. Do more of that. If you love planting stuff, put in a food plot or some fruit trees and enjoy your farming too.
 
hammer33 said:
I think the real answer is..... Why compare yourself to anyone else?
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Because it's human nature. Sit 5 toddlers in a room and hand 4 of them a head of broccoli and the fifth one a birthday cake. Even at that primal age they understand that somebody is getting something better and they want some, too. Nothing you can say will make the situation more fun for the four kids with broccoli. You can tell them the real "treat" is just being there, and that they're being jealous & insecure because they want cake, too. But we all know how that'll go over.

There's a reason hunting is considered sport and big racks considered trophies. Competition is how we fancy apes advance. Whether it's governments putting astronauts out to explore space or first graders competing in a spelling bee, competition exist in nearly every facet of our existence. It began with Cain & Abel. They gave us a lesson on what happens when we allow that competitive nature drive us to lashing out at one another. But when we can keep ourselves under control, nothing pushes us further or advances us more than healthy competition.
 
I've got a buddy (who is now a turkey pro-staffer) that is the legit best hunter I know. Everything from squirrels and rabbits, to big deer and gobblers. If I could choose one dude to hunt a season with, it'd be him.

I usually manage to kill at least one 4.5yo buck every year, but he consistently kills 140" deer pretty much every year.

The two 500 acre farms he has all to himself are a big advantage.
 
Ski.
You make a great point. Competitiveness is a human trait.
My point is that we have a choice. We HAVE TO compete at some things. Why CHOOSE to compete at something that really doesn't matter if you win ?
As I have gotten older being very selective in what I put my energy towards has given me peace. Hunting is very important to me. Its when we get to unwind and be away from the hectic competitive world. Putting another arbitrary metric on "success" tends to narrow the hunting focus to one thing.... antler size. I'm not saying that no one should try to kill big bucks. What I am saying is if that is THE goal far and above all others, measured against other people, then the whole rest of the hunting experience tends to get lost or devalued.

I know that the Big Buck arms race is what sells and moves $$$$$$$$$$$ product. Antlers can be measured so it is easy to default to. The feeling you get when a bird lands on a branch feet from your face and sings you good morning as the first rays of light break the horizon ...... How do you put a metric on that?
 
hammer33 said:
Ski.
You make a great point. Competitiveness is a human trait.
My point is that we have a choice. We HAVE TO compete at some things. Why CHOOSE to compete at something that really doesn't matter if you win ?
As I have gotten older being very selective in what I put my energy towards has given me peace. Hunting is very important to me. Its when we get to unwind and be away from the hectic competitive world. Putting another arbitrary metric on "success" tends to narrow the hunting focus to one thing.... antler size. I'm not saying that no one should try to kill big bucks. What I am saying is if that is THE goal far and above all others, measured against other people, then the whole rest of the hunting experience tends to get lost or devalued.

I know that the Big Buck arms race is what sells and moves $$$$$$$$$$$ product. Antlers can be measured so it is easy to default to. The feeling you get when a bird lands on a branch feet from your face and sings you good morning as the first rays of light break the horizon ...... How do you put a metric on that?
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I'm not sure why some things have value over others. I sometimes have to put myself in check because the desire for giant antlers and the energy expended to get them borders absurdity. I often wonder the point of it all. Then I consider things like ancient cave paintings, people visiting Yellowstone, etc. Those petroglyphs don't depict does & spikes. They show huge racks, meaning antlers have occupied hunters' minds as long as humans have been able to artistically & abstractly express themselves. And folks visiting Yellowstone aren't there to see herds of cow elk. They want pictures of that monarch bull wearing a 7ft tall crown! Doesn't matter if they're a hunter or not, humans across every genre & historic time frame seem to revere big antlers. I'm inclined to think it's built into our DNA.

But I can't argue with your logic. In fact I hear your words echo within my own life, albeit yet at a distance. While it's hard to remember each deer I've taken, I clearly recall the way my younger self wanted to kill them all, and the rush of adrenaline it gave. A gorilla thumping his chest comes to mind. As the years have passed I gradually found each kill becoming more bitter than sweet. I'm at a point now where I single out the oldest, biggest, wisest buck and hunt only him either until I succeed or he disappears forever. It may take a year or it may take 3 or more. No other deer satisfies me. Even the thrill of those accomplishments are beginning to wane. These days I'm nearly more content simply working the habitat & watching the deer grow up than I am actually killing them.

In short I see your point and mostly agree. I'm just not sure I agree that it's a choice. I more tend to believe it's a progression we each evolve through with time & experience. It begins with a genetic disposition to desire big antlers, driven by testosterone & likely ego to attain them, then progressively gives way to admiring the animal wearing them, appreciating God's creation and our place in it. Our ancestors didn't need to kill mature bucks to feed the tribe, but those are the ones they felt compelled to represent when expressing their thoughts for us to see 10,000yrs later. I suspect giant bucks consumed their thoughts same way they still do ours.
 
I appreciate both hammer33's post as well as Ski's. I see both points. But I also find it absurd that hunters would decide "who is a better hunter" based on the size antlers they've killed. Know I guy who has a buck VERY high in the B&C Record Book (over 200 inches). Is he a great hunter? Nope. But he hunts in Iowa, the land of the giants. I would put the skills of most on this Forum who hunt the mountains of East TN and only have a 120 top buck up against that guy's skills any day.
 
hammer33 said:
I think the real answer is..... Why compare yourself to anyone else? That way lies misery. There is ALWAYS someone with a better property, more money, bigger bucks. WHY do you feel the need to compare with others? What insecurity lies behind this?
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This mindset applies to so many things in life. Some people seem almost obsessed with what someone else has, is doing, wearing, how much money they make. These comparisons are so petty and meaningless, often resulting in poor decision making and robbing you of contentment. I don't care what kind of truck you drive or how much you paid for it. The main comparison is to yourself. Are you, a better you, than you used to be?
 
Soft Talker said:
The only deer hunters who have ever impressed me, have been ones who can consistantly kill legal bucks in the South Cherokee NF year after year, without the use of bait. Everything else is child's play ;)
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I agree with this. I grew up hunting South Cherokee. I couldn't consistently do it. That's why I hunt in middle TN. LOL.
 

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