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Late season food source

BSK said:
Smart man DoubleRidge.
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Thanks....but cant take credit....it was the experience of the Forester that we leaned on...honestly I'd probably never would have thought of requiring earnest money up front...but looking back...I agree...it was very wise.
Truth is most people dont get much practice with large timber harvest projects...so once, maybe twice in their life...mistakes can last generations...we leaned heavily on others experiences...and l agree...I dont want to paint all loggers the same. I personally know some great men in the industry....but the land owner must protect himself and his investment.
 
DoubleRidge said:
I dont want to paint all loggers the same. I personally know some great men in the industry....but the land owner must protect himself and his investment.
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So far, after numerous timbering operations, I've found the small family-run logging operations are the most conscientious. They may be slower, but they treat the property better.
 
My loggers are a small outfit with just a 4 man crew, but have had a dozer and a front-end loader along with cutter, skidder, and knuckleboom on-site the entire operation. My roads are in better shape than they've ever been.
 
BSK said:
So far, after numerous timbering operations, I've found the small family-run logging operations are the most conscientious. They may be slower, but they treat the property better.
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Have generally found likewise, although not always the case.

Had good experiences with Crouch Logging out of Henry County over past couple years.
It's basically a man and his two sons, all highly experienced, conscientious, and trustworthy. Plus, they have very modern equipment. They contract with log truck drivers to haul the logs away from where they're working. They just cut & stack & load the trailers, which get swapped out multiple times daily by the contracted truck drivers.
 
TheLBLman said:
Have generally found likewise, although not always the case.

Had good experiences with Crouch Logging out of Henry County over past couple years.
It's basically a man and his two sons, all highly experienced, conscientious, and trustworthy. Plus, they have very modern equipment. They contract with log truck drivers to haul the logs away from where they're working. They just cut & stack & load the trailers, which get swapped out multiple times daily by the contracted truck drivers.
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Great idea for them. Not having to own the log-haulers must cut down on expenses a bit.
 
DoubleRidge said:
These type conversations are interesting with the different view points and experiences and while reading all this the one word that comes to mind is diversity....TSI, food plots, old field management, early successional growth, edge feathering, etc.....Diversity.
I've experienced both sides of the conversation....green plot of cereal rye can take the cold and deer are on it late season ...no doubt. Honeysuckle and briar thickets....deer use the heck out of it...seen them stand in it feeding and even bed in it for hours on end during cold rainy late season hunts...And so much can be said for thick cover...especially if your neighbors are lacking it...but the entire conversation is about offering diversity.
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This exactly. Diversity. We have foodplots peppered throughout. Imbedded around all those foodplots are a mixture of several different stage cut timber and hardwoods. As soon as we get some rain, our rye and clover will pop. It is so dry!!!
 
DoubleRidge said:
We went with #2 at the advice of our Forester. Our place isnt as big as yours but we had similar concerns....So our Forester collected $5,000 earnest money up front which he held in an account. Once the project was complete we drove the property and agreed that the contract agreement was met. Contract included all road construction and condition as well as location and condition of all log loading decks, zero trash, height of tree tops from ground, no work in Nov or Dec, etc.
Once we gave the Ok the money was returned. If not ok, they had 30 days to make it right. After 30 days, if not complete, the money could be used to repair roads, etc....all was spelled out in the contract and agreed upon before the first tree fell....all in all this worked well for us....its nice knowing your somewhat protected.
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That's precisely what a consulting forester is for. They manage the project and keep the loggers honest. They also generally get you paid better than if you had contracted the loggers yourself. Other than small jobs I don't know why any land owner would allow a logging crew in without hiring a forester first.
 
Ski said:
That's precisely what a consulting forester is for. They manage the project and keep the loggers honest. They also generally get you paid better than if you had contracted the loggers yourself.
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Nothing against loggers...again, I have friends in the industry...hard working folks....But you described our exact experience....Our Forester took nine bids on our timber standing....timber that he marked per our agreed upon management plan and a company I never heard of, two countys over, won the bid...and even after paying his fee we ended up with well more than we originally expected....very pleased with the project...that was four years ago and I still stay in touch with our Forester...learned allot about habitat management from him.
 
Ski said:
That's precisely what a consulting forester is for. They manage the project and keep the loggers honest. They also generally get you paid better than if you had contracted the loggers yourself. Other than small jobs I don't know why any land owner would allow a logging crew in without hiring a forester first.
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This has not been my experience at all. In fact, I'll never use a forester again.

But then maybe I just worked with a bad one (although he was the forester everyone in the area recommended).
 
DoubleRidge said:
Nothing against loggers...again, I have friends in the industry...hard working folks....But you described our exact experience....Our Forester took nine bids on our timber standing....timber that he marked per our agreed upon management plan and a company I never heard of, two countys over, won the bid...and even after paying his fee we ended up with well more than we originally expected....very pleased with the project...that was four years ago and I still stay in touch with our Forester...learned allot about habitat management from him.
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Yeah that's pretty par. I've screwed up & hired one bad one but I realized it pretty quick and fired him. Turned out he was in a lot of trouble for some slimy practices. Otherwise I've worked with three others and they were nothing short of profesional. They care more about the land & trees than I do, which if you knew me says something. The one I've got on hire now is amazing. Hopefully he never retires because I want to keep him around indefinitely. He comes out twice per year to cruise the place and flags any areas of concern, invasive species, etc. then sends me a report of how he took care of it or recommends I take care of it. My forestry management plan looks like a text book with timelines & instructions. I think he knows every single tree growing on the place and probably has them named.
 
BSK said:
This has not been my experience at all. In fact, I'll never use a forester again.

But then maybe I just worked with a bad one (although he was the forester everyone in the area recommended).
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I guess it's like retaining a dud lawyer. You pay them to bat for the other team & screw you over. Fortunately the vast majority of foresters are pretty awesome. Unfortunately it sounds like you found one of the few that isn't.
 
TheLBLman said:
And that's why you have so many water bars! :p
I also hate water bars, but practical solution.
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I feel that water bars are for getting water AWAY FROM THE ROAD, not off the road. There fore my water bars simply give water a path of less resistance from the side of the road and should never be across the road where it can be driven across. Properly built trails and roads will be on slope or high ground most of the time and where natural contours aren't enough to keep water from saturating the road a water bar begins a couple feet inside the road, interrupts the ditch line and transitions into a control drain. I am pretty good at building BBD's but they require more time, more disturbance and often stay wet due to low or no slope and if you do not maintain them they will rut and become a mud hole. Yes, a proper BBD is nice to look at and easy to drive thru until they aren't.
Practicality
Also never seen a BBD on steep ground, they become drainage ditches that need culverts
 
Popcorn said:
I feel that water bars are for getting water AWAY FROM THE ROAD, not off the road. There fore my water bars simply give water a path of less resistance from the side of the road and should never be across the road where it can be driven across. Properly built trails and roads will be on slope or high ground most of the time and where natural contours aren't enough to keep water from saturating the road a water bar begins a couple feet inside the road, interrupts the ditch line and transitions into a control drain. I am pretty good at building BBD's but they require more time, more disturbance and often stay wet due to low or no slope and if you do not maintain them they will rut and become a mud hole. Yes, a proper BBD is nice to look at and easy to drive thru until they aren't.
Practicality
Also never seen a BBD on steep ground, they become drainage ditches that need culverts
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Our BBDs all tilt at the low point outwards off the slope of the hill the road is on. Never had one turn into a mudhole because they don't hold water. Every water-bar a logger has placed in our roads goes across the entire road and is just a blade-full of dirt pushed down the road and left in place. They are usually at least a foot tall (sometimes 3 feet tall) and will darn near break the axle of a regular vehicle. Even an ATV or side-by-side will high-center on them, if not launch you into outer space if you forget they're there.

The loggers won't come in with our BBDs. They say the outward tilt of the low-spot twists the frames of their trucks. Don't doubt that. But if they could just replace them when their done. Nope, a water-bar we almost can't cross. :mad:
 
BSK said:
Our BBDs all tilt at the low point outwards off the slope of the hill the road is on. Never had one turn into a mudhole because they don't hold water. Every water-bar a logger has placed in our roads goes across the entire road and is just a blade-full of dirt pushed down the road and left in place. They are usually at least a foot tall (sometimes 3 feet tall) and will darn near break the axle of a regular vehicle. Even an ATV or side-by-side will high-center on them, if not launch you into outer space if you forget they're there.

The loggers won't come in with our BBDs. They say the outward tilt of the low-spot twists the frames of their trucks. Don't doubt that. But if they could just replace them when their done. Nope, a water-bar we almost can't cross. :mad:
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Rarely is more than 8 to 12 inches required for a water bar to be successful.
I agree with you on the disaster created by some loggers not to mention how arrogant and ornery they get when you call them on their half azzed repairs.
 
Hillbilly Hunter said:
I have alot of thick nasty stuff. I have two fields that i bushhog at the end of May and thats it. It grows higher than the tractor by the next cutting and is full of woody weeds such as briars, milkweed, and other stuff. I don't see how a rabbit gets through it! I try to have as much variances in habitat as i can. I am always looking to improve it. Great info on this thread.
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Boom, easy fix.

I think we hunt pretty close to one another, so I bet your land is similar to mine.

Change your bushhogging rotation from May to late July to early August. Doing so will give you about 12 inches of new palatable growth (assuming it's buckbrush and blackberry briers if like my farms) by deer season, whereas bushhogging in May nets you nothing but cover, but no food. Plus the 12 inches of new growth has hardened by Jan/Feb and the deer can still utilize it for food. Simple and easy way to increase late season food, with no extra expense or time.

IF you have the time and are willing to spend a little more in diesel.... the very best option would be to bushhog the entire fields in May, then come back and bushog another 1/3 in strips in late July, then bushhog another 1/3 in strips lat August.... the third bushhogged in August will be extremely palatable come November and will be a primary drought resistant food source as the new growth is young and tender. The problem is... its also very susceptible to freeze kill since it's young and tender.... BUT, you have the third bushhogged in late July which (although not as palatable) is much cold hardy and deer can browse on all winter long. The third bushhogged in May remains as good cover (both thermal on sunny days as well as security cover).

But don't feel bad your deer are leaving in January to head to crop residue.... that just means other folks are feeding your deer for a good part of the year at no expense to you!
 
Hillbilly Hunter said:
😂. BSK, can you elaborate for us slow ones?
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BBD = Broad-Based Dips. It is a road-building technique in hilly terrain. They are designed to slow the water runoff on dirt/chert roads to reduce erosion.

This is a good article on different water diversion techniques for forest roads. They have a section on broad-based dips.

www.aces.edu

Forest Roads and Construction of Associated Water Diversion Devices - Alabama Cooperative Extension System

The importance of forest roads and consideration of their proper design is frequently neglected by forest landowners. Some forests such as wilderness areas and other forests managed on a custodial management regime do not permit or require road access. But, most forest landowners like to drive...
www.aces.edu www.aces.edu

Personally, I would be happy with lots and lots of water turnouts. But the loggers don't even seem to understand how to make those.
 
BSK said:
BBD = Broad-Based Dips. It is a road-building technique in hilly terrain. They are designed to slow the water runoff on dirt/chert roads to reduce erosion.

This is a good article on different water diversion techniques for forest roads. They have a section on broad-based dips.

www.aces.edu

Forest Roads and Construction of Associated Water Diversion Devices - Alabama Cooperative Extension System

The importance of forest roads and consideration of their proper design is frequently neglected by forest landowners. Some forests such as wilderness areas and other forests managed on a custodial management regime do not permit or require road access. But, most forest landowners like to drive...
www.aces.edu www.aces.edu

Personally, I would be happy with lots and lots of water turnouts. But the loggers don't even seem to understand how to make those.
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Thanks! I have been looking into the best ways to turn water out from my 4 wheeler trails. I have a couple of trouble areas. Great info.
 

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