Limiting Out

[Tennessee Lead]

I will add that I think Fall turkey hunting is a complete waste of time. A dead hen = zero eggs. There is really no sense in Fall Hunting in my opinion but, to each their own..

I would start here first if anything is changed.

Edit
Then I'd look at the strutting decoys and fanning methods
That would save a lot of Tom's

 

[TheLBLman]

I will add that I think Fall turkey hunting is a complete waste of time. A dead hen = zero eggs. There is really no sense in Fall Hunting in my opinion but, to each their own..

We must be about on the same page. :tu:

So did you kill those Stewart County birds in your front yard or your back yard, or was it near my front yard?

Mike, congratulations on having such good turkey hunting this spring. You and your neighbors have really been slaying them.
All I can figure out for me is I've been "unlucky" this spring, as I'm usually passing up longbeards trying not to limit out too soon. The only longbeards I've passed have simply been because I couldn't get a good head shot and didn't want to get pellets in the breast. Been two of those now, and I've still gone "birdless". But I have no problem with those who don't mind a few pellets in the breasts, to each their own.

On the bright side, I have been seeing more jakes than normal, and a lot more jennies. Just haven't been able to get the longbeards to gobble much, at least in response to my calling, which probably sounds more like a rusty gate opening than a lonely hen!

 

[Dover_Mike]

I will add that I think Fall turkey hunting is a complete waste of time. A dead hen = zero eggs. There is really no sense in Fall Hunting in my opinion but, to each their own..

We must be about on the same page. :tu:

So did you kill those Stewart County birds in your front yard or your back yard, or was it near my front yard?

Mike, congratulations on having such good turkey hunting this spring. You and your neighbors have really been slaying them.
All I can figure out for me is I've been "unlucky" this spring, as I'm usually passing up longbeards trying not to limit out too soon. The only longbeards I've passed have simply been because I couldn't get a good head shot and didn't want to get pellets in the breast. Been two of those now, and I've still gone "birdless". But I have no problem with those who don't mind a few pellets in the breasts, to each their own.

On the bright side, I have been seeing more jakes than normal, and a lot more jennies. Just haven't been able to get the longbeards to gobble much, at least in response to my calling, which probably sounds more like a rusty gate opening than a lonely hen!

HAHA!! Wes, you can use your imagination where the 2 local birds came from. As for the house birds, before season I was hearing between 5-6 behind the house on your lease, seems like they did what they do every year. They head for the cattle field across the street from your gate and mill around out there. I do know my neighbor and his son have killed a couple and the guy that hunts the cattle field has killed 2 or 3 judging from shots heard. There have been 2 longbeards that have taken up residency on my side hill near my spring (boarders your lease). I put 20k bees out there yesterday so they may have a sore lip if the wonder to close to the boxes haha.

I am with you on the lack of gobbling, like I said I think they are really now just starting to bust up and get to cranking. There is one bred hen that is building a nest back beside of my pond now too. I will keep a watch and see when she starts to lay.

 

[TheLBLman]

I put 20k bees out there yesterday so they may have a sore lip if the wonder to close to the boxes haha.

I actually saw those when I drove by, and was wondering when you had put out those bee boxes (just never noticed them before). Seems almost everyone around is putting them out. Are you going to get you a donkey soon? About everyone now has one of those, too!

Can always tell you've been "busy" around the yard, but never see you. (Yard, or should we say "estate", looks nice.)

 

[Mike Belt]

First of all my knowledge of turkeys isn't as much as that of the deer I hunt. So-o-o, I'm speculating that in the wild the biggest percentage of turkeys don't make it past 3.5 years old. In those 3.5 years they are the targets of a collage of predators, including those carrying shotguns; the only ones having a lawful legal limit. It would stand to reason that if that limit was even in part responsible for declining numbers or an unsustainable population that reducing that limit would benefit the population. The elimination of hens results in the elimination of poults results in the elimination of a percentage of "huntable" birds. Curtailing those regulations could only be a positive step towards improving numbers.

A discussion on limits is relative not only to populations but to those hunting the turkeys... and that can be varied. For those fortunate enough to live and hunt in areas that easily sustain high populations of birds a lower limit might not seem needed. At the other end of the spectrum those hunting areas with low numbers might be inclined to believe a limit reduction may be needed to increase the population. Those who have hunted areas that were once turkey meccas but have had a dramatic drop in population over the years are probably the most open to the idea of a limit reduction.

"Limiting out" during any season on any game is probably a undeniable goal for many. There's nothing wrong with that mindset as long as the game population can withstand it and possibly even more so, that it happens because of opportunity and circumstance rather than because it's the primary goal of a hunting season. Priorities differ but when how many you can kill takes precedence over the actual experience of making those kills something seems to be lacking; namely the right to call yourself an ethical, responsible hunter.

 

[TheLBLman]

"Limiting out" during any season on any game is probably a undeniable goal for many. There's nothing wrong with that mindset as long as the game population can withstand it and possibly even more so, that it happens because of opportunity and circumstance rather than because it's the primary goal of a hunting season. Priorities differ but when how many you can kill takes precedence over the actual experience of making those kills something seems to be lacking; namely the right to call yourself an ethical, responsible hunter.

Generally agree, Mr. Belt.

Would add, I personally perceive a big difference in the "limits" regarding some game species vs. others. Maybe I'm personally being hypocritical?
But when I go dove or duck hunting, it is much of my intention to "get the limit", as I don't perceive that as having the same potential negative effect as killing the limit of some non-migratory bird (such a turkey).

One other thing, even though many of us daily "limit out" on doves and ducks, none of us actually "limit out" for the entire season on doves and ducks. Well, maybe no one except for Chaneylake, but I don't really have a problem with his killing the dove limit every day of the season. :mrgreen: More power to him. By contrast, we're talking entire annual limits on turkeys, where the hunter's goal is to achieve that annual limit. With doves and ducks, hunters can often get the daily limit, yet not even kill 1/10th the annual limit in an entire season or year.

Back to the turkeys, they do seem very similar to quail, just much larger birds.
So go the quail, so will go the turkeys? Any truth to that?

I guess if we had so few turkey hunters as we now have quail hunters, none of us would be any more concerned with the current turkey limits than the current quail limits? On the other hand, if we had a bunch of quail hunters working so hard to get their limits as do the turkey hunters, we would have already seen the total extinction of bobwhite quail.

 

[megalomaniac]

Anyone noticing how important is seems to so many avid turkey hunters that they "limit out" each spring?

Kinda seems the exact number of kills is not nearly as important as being able to say "limited out"?

Or,
I will not live up to my reputation of being this world-class turkey hunter should I do anything but turkey hunting, so long as the law allows and I have not yet limited out. Just seems the focus of many is more about "getting the limit" rather than the quality of the hunting, or even thinking about the future of that hunting.

So commonly heard these days . . . . . . .
There's just so few longbeards, none of them dares to gobble, and I'm having trouble finding that last one to limit out. Heck, I took all this vacation time off, and now I can't find a bird to get my limit finished.

Me, I kinda feel guilty even shooting that first one, if I can't kill him coming in gobbling, strutting, and putting on a show.
Personally, I'm not that focused on limiting out, often more focused on NOT killing that final bird, just so can continue hunting with the option of killing one, should one put on the proper show, and all the stars align just the right way such that the kill becomes the icing on the cake.

IF we had a lower turkey limit, would those so focused on limiting out oppose or applaud it?
Really makes little difference to me, just wondering, and also wondering if we had more longbeards surviving each spring (and fall), would we then hear more gobbling, seen more strutting, and see more of Mother Nature's "greatest shows" in the subsequent years?

It would be opposed by the vast majority of TN hunters (and esp out of state hunters that come to TN for the 4 bird limit)

 

[megalomaniac]

I've tagged out the past 4 seasons so I feel like I fall short if I don't tag out. However that's not the only reason... I also like hunting them so much I would kill 5 or 6 or 8 if I could. As for populations, I try and hunt different places. I've got 3 this year and they all were killed a good distance apart, in 2 different counties.

Really if I didn't miss shots and get busted several times a year, I'd be tagged out way sooner every spring. Lol


I'm like you u. I limit out every year. But I hunt in several different counties and make sure to leave a bird or 2 in every location to ensure all the hens get bred.

That works out perfectly if no one else is hunting anywhere near where that last bird was left

 

[PickettSFHunter]

They'll do whatever it takes to get the limit. Crawl em, fan em, bushwhack em, shoot at em from 60 plus yards, whatever. I've also noticed if they live in an area like I do that isnt loaded with birds and they can't be that successful, they'll head off to Middle TN. It's the TV star wannabe crowd if you notice.


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[megalomaniac]

Ready for next year, hopefully there will be an abundance of hot headed 2 year olds.

Same here, but have noted HOPE is not a very good plan. :tu:

Just wondering if we would have more of those hot headed 2 year olds next year if we had had a 2-bird limit this year?

YES

Would we have more if our turkey season was not as long, i.e. why does the KY turkey biologist see things so differently than the TN turkey biologist?

YES

Would we have more if we didn't even have a fall turkey season?

YES

If we went back to our 2-bird limit (something we had for many years), would the majority of TN's turkey hunters actually enjoy more turkey hunting?

MAYBE.... the vast majority would have a more enjoyable experience, but those that like to rack and stack would be miserable.

 

[megalomaniac]

Maury County continues to kill the piss out of them, and reload every year.

For now... I don't expect that to continue indefinetly... as least I've learned that NO property is immune to a rapid decline/ decimation in population no matter how many birds they have currently.

 

[megalomaniac]

... That being said, I think it shouldn't be about what I want or have to hunt. The regs need to reflect what's best for the game animal's population. I know it may not be popular, but I would be for a yearly assessment and change if needed each year. Each years hatch can have a dramatic effect very quickly.

EXACTLY....

For some reason, TWRA thinks we are all so stupid that we have to have a STATIC harvest of an animal which has a DYNAMIC population and reproduction capability. I learned to read back in 1st grade. I think I could still manage to read the regs each spring to know what the limit is.

 

[megalomaniac]

If we had good hatches, and lots of poult recruitment, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

That is true! :mrgreen:
Now which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Really?
More and more people every year take up turkey hunting
and with the liberal limits and long seasons we have over hunted WMA's
From out of state hunters and TN residents that flood public ground the first week
to kill and leave their private spots for later on in the season

Heck, that's what I do now... it took me 2 decades to figure it out, so I'm not that smart, but all 5 birds I called in during the first 8 days of hunting were called off others properties and I didn't touch the homebody birds saving those for next week.

 

[megalomaniac]

How many of those presumably "missed" birds later die the next week from having a single pellet in their gut?

The higher our limits, the more days we have to hunt, the more birds that die, from all causes, some of which do not result in a hunter taking home a kill. The more the focus on killing more, the more that opportunity, it sometimes seems the less we care about the risks and outcomes of poor shooting and taking low-probability shots?

Most don't die from the crippling shot itself, they would recover more than likely were it not for the multitude of coyotes, bobcats, dogs, cats that eat them before they can recover.

 

[catman529]

Maury County continues to kill the piss out of them, and reload every year.

For now... I don't expect that to continue indefinetly... as least I've learned that NO property is immune to a rapid decline/ decimation in population no matter how many birds they have currently.

the way I see it is the harvest won't hurt the population unless we have a couple of bad hatches, or some mysterious disease die off like the southern middle counties. Maury county is doing fine although I did stop hunting the fall season there on public land due to the high amount of hunters.


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[TheLBLman]

Most don't die from the crippling shot itself, they would recover more than likely were it not for the multitude of coyotes, bobcats, dogs, cats that eat them before they can recover.

You might be right, as I have noticed similar with wounded deer, even when their wounds were unlikely to directly cause their deaths.

All it takes is a faint whiff of blood, and denned coyotes will come out and go directly to it, even in the middle of the day. I'm wondering if this might be a great coyote hunting tactic, i.e. just obtain some animal blood and put it out as an attractant "scent". Can't tell you how many times I've seen superficially wounded deer being "dogged" by a coyote. And I suspect when bucks first shed their antlers, there is enough blood scent in the air there to greatly increase predation on these bucks for a couple days around that time. This could be a partial explanation why so many bucks surviving hunting season, are never seen again during the summer or next fall.

I once killed a turkey on a WMA that appeared to have been shot up pretty bad a few days earlier. He was behaving much like any other longbeard, but he must surely have been covered up with over 200 fat engorged deer ticks, to the point I questioned how he had enough blood remaining in his body to have remained alive. Even deer ticks are drawn to the smell of fresh blood.

Bottom line, a wounded turkey is in a very compromised state, adversely effecting its survivability.

 

[Os2 Outdoors]

They'll do whatever it takes to get the limit. Crawl em, fan em, bushwhack em, shoot at em from 60 plus yards, whatever. I've also noticed if they live in an area like I do that isnt loaded with birds and they can't be that successful, they'll head off to Middle TN. It's the TV star wannabe crowd if you notice.


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What's wrong with hunting within the limits of the law?

I've never killed one by fanning myself but...

Yes I tag out every year. Have for as long as I can remember. I hunt for the chase, the thrill, the other experiences of mother nature, camaraderie ship, food, but most of all to kill something.



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[poorhunter]

I have been blessed to have several private properties that really have a great population and very limited other hunters. I only kill one or at most two on any one property, to keep from overhunting.

Would you care to share the approximate acreage of your average turkey-hunting property?

Average is 180 acres.

 

[TheLBLman]

Average is 180 acres.

That's great.
I may be mistaken, but believe that's considerably larger than the average tract most private-land hunters are hunting turkeys, and most are sharing it with another hunter or two.

To add a little perspective, and I'm mainly using these WMA's because they're a known acreage of nearly completely contiguous turkey-hunting acreage, let's compare your results to . . . . .

For the past three seasons, here's the number of turkeys harvested (spring season only):

Chuck Swan WMA = 24,444 acres
------- As an aside, Chuck Swan is actually widely believed to have much better turkey hunting (and more turkeys) than most private properties across TN - - - - -
2015 = 91 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 269 acres
2014 = 42 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 582 acres
2013 = 48 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 509 acres

Oak Ridge WMA = 37,000 acres
2015 = 45 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 822 acres
2014 = 23 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 1,609 acres
2013 = 39 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 949 acres

LBL = 60,000 acres (TN side only).
2015 = 89 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 674 acres
2014 = 92 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 652 acres
2013 = 84 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 714 acres

Catoosa WMA = 79,740 acres
2015 = 74 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 1,077 acres
2014 = 57 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 1,399 acres
2013 = 72 = Breaks down to 1 turkey checked in per 1,107 acres

As you can see, the annual turkey harvest (just in the spring) is typically somewhere around 1 bird (or less) per 1 square mile (640 acres).

My question becomes, just how many turkeys can we harvest each spring (per square mile of good habitat) without adversely effecting the population?

IMO, we are generally killing more on the "statewide" private properties (per square mile of turkey habitat) than on these WMA's which are generally at least "good" turkey areas. But years of better data and more controlled harvests on these WMA's appear to show us the maximum sustainable harvests (without adversely effecting the population) may be quite a bit lower than what's happening on private properties across Tennessee.