Overhunting stands

[BSK]

x 2

I'm in agreement with what BSK posted,
but do have a bit of some "theory" here regarding . . . . . .

I suspect BSK's particular data set may be biased a bit toward stands that have been placed more for closer range hunting (wooded & heavy cover set-ups). There is also the issue of the dates hunted.

Absolutely true. Much of this data comes from stands set for "bow-hunting range" shots. Basically 20-40 yards from where the deer are expected to be for that set-up.

 

[Headhunter]

Not an expert at all, but I have observed your thoughts on this subject. I think you are too hung up on the thought of folks just NOT HUNTING because the wind is wrong. You mention this on the majority of the posts you write in regards to wind. Most folks, including myself, are more inclined to simply hunt a different spot. Simple as that. We still go hunting, just in a different spot, so the opportunity for a kill is still there. We don't just sit and watch "Good Morning America" with a cup of coffee because there is a SW wind instead of a NW wind. Just food for thought. Nice buck by the way. Shooter in my book.

I do say a lot about that, just because that is the number one reason, when just talking about deer hunting in general with anyone and I TALK, I hear about not hunting at all.

JCdeerman, maybe you don't realize it, but it is amazing the number of hunters that will not hunt if the wind is wrong, even for an entire farm.

I never pay attention or look at the wind until I get to where I want to hunt and even then I may go ahead hunt the spot even when I think the wind is wrong.

 

[BSK]

This is always a great reminder! Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you have roughly 70 stands allocated throughout your farm BSK?

This year, 48 on 500 acres.

 

[BSK]

So, are mature bucks much smarter than mature does? I get two or three deer a year from the same stand, mostly does, and a buck now and then. I usually take a week each year to hunt, then after I revert to weekends, mostly on Saturday. One year, I was busted by the same three does twice, before I had a shot on the third sighting, all on different days.

I think that really depends on how hard the does are hunted. In an area where hunters shoot few does, mature bucks are more jumpy. But if harvest pressure is equal, I would give the nod to a mature doe.

 

[BSK]

I asked him about rubber boots. He said it didn't make any difference to the dog. He would track them right to their stand no matter what type boots they were wearing.

Doesn't matter what the boots are made of, if they're not kept clean. What really spooks deer is the oils and petroleum smells we get on our boots from the floormats of our vehicles, or from walking around at the gas station. I wear my hunting boots nowhere but the woods. They are kept in air-tight containers when I'm not walking through the woods, and the outside and soles are regularly washed in scent-reducing soaps. Makes a BIG difference IF you have to walk across/along deer trails to a stand.

 

[Hillbilly Hunter]

There are many, many variables other than just hunting a stand. It would be impossible to weed out other variables that affect the out come.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

Doesn't matter what the boots are made of, if they're not kept clean. What really spooks deer is the oils and petroleum smells we get on our boots from the floormats of our vehicles, or from walking around at the gas station. I wear my hunting boots nowhere but the woods. They are kept in air-tight containers when I'm not walking through the woods, and the outside and soles are regularly washed in scent-reducing soaps. Makes a BIG difference IF you have to walk across/along deer trails to a stand.

Could not agree more. I already take my clothes and packs fairly extreme and my wife thinks I'm crazy. If she only knew how extreme I am with my boots, then her thoughts would be confirmed. I have 3 pairs: non-insulated, 400g and 800g dependent on temperature. None of which have stepped foot in a truck, anywhere indoors, any rug, etc.....It is amazing what you can get away with. Two of those pairs of boots are on the front porch of our cabin, and that's where they will be stored until the end of deer season when they are put in a tote.

 

[Hillbilly Hunter]

I definitely "over hunt" a few of my stands. My hours on stand per mature buck sighting on these stands is much much better than your graph. Variables and location differences are endless, but i love your data and studies. We can all learn from data. Thanks for sharing.

 

[BSK]

I definitely "over hunt" a few of my stands. My hours on stand per mature buck sighting on these stands is much much better than your graph.

Our mature buck sighting rates are incredible low. Not because we don't have them, but because 1) we put far more hunting pressure on our place than the neighbors do; and 2) Our visibility is extremely limited. Most stands it would be rare to be able to see a deer beyond 60 yards.

 

[TheLBLman]

I never pay attention or look at the wind until I get to where I want to hunt and even then I may go ahead hunt the spot even when I think the wind is wrong.

I'm going to defend Headhunter's thoughts a bit here, based on my assumption he likely hunts "higher" than most hunters.

I have found that wind direction typically becomes much less an issue, the higher up a tree you hunt. I commonly have older deer directly downwind from me, within bow-range, never smell me, IF I'm 20-something feet high in my climber. Where possible, I often hunt 30-feet high.

IMO, in most close-range setups (under 50 yards), being over 20 feet high is critical, and there seems to be something almost magical in going over 22 feet.

At least for archery & muzzleloader, and/or anywhere I'm expecting the deer to be under 100 yds, my most common tree-climbing height is about 23 feet, and higher is preferred to lower. Since this is impossible with many trees, I often just pick a different tree in a different spot, just so can get higher up. The most recent morning I hunted, I climbed up to exactly 30 feet before settling in, and in a particular tree I hadn't hunted in almost exactly 1 year, and won't hunt again this year.

In many cases, your scent will blow over & above the deer, then become more diluted at all downrange distances, as compared to if you're on the ground or not as high above it. Your scent molecules actually "stick" and stick more to any vegetation or surfaces the closer they are to the source.

Another thing: The wind direction typically shifts dramatically while you are on stand. Being higher up just minimizes the problems this can cause.

Yes, there are many "downsides" to hunting from a higher perch, so each "hunt" is weighed based on all the options. Since I cannot find a "safe" ladder stand over 21 feet, that largely rules out most ladder-stand hunting for me personally. Never mind I do often hunt from the ground, and do that more than I hunt from ladder stands.

I've said this many times:

The best way to ruin a great spot is to place a ladder stand in it.

This is in part because the wind will typically shift around,
no matter how it was forecast when you decided to hunt that spot.

Another part of how it ruins the spot is via the ladder stand being placed,
it becomes a more "convenient" spot to hunt, then over-hunt.

Lastly, it is seen by other hunters (often including trespassers), who will now start hunting a "spot"
they didn't and maybe wouldn't previously, just because it has now become "convenient"
for them, too.

By contrast, packing in, climbing, descending, & packing out a climbing stand daily is the absolute least "convenient" way of hunting, as it requires getting up earlier, and more "work" with each hunt. For me, it has generally been the most effective way to hunt "undisturbed" deer.
Just have to get up and get going a little earlier with each outing.

Yes, there are exceptions to everything said above.
But most set-ups are not exceptions.

 

[DeerCamp]

I've talked about this data before, but just wanted to show the data graphed out for anyone that is interested. As I've stated before, the more a stand is hunted, the lower the odds of seeing an older buck. Bucks, especially older more hunter-wary bucks, are very sensitive to hunting pressure. They don't have to see you in a stand to know the area has been hunted. We shed human scent constantly, and that scent pours down onto the ground around the stand. Deer coming through days later can pick up on that accumulating human scent. Deer also have excellent memories. They remember where they encountered danger, and either avoid the area all-together, or move through only after dark.

Below is a graph from approximately 6,000 hours of hunting time, collected over 30+ year period, displaying the average sighting rate of older bucks (2 1/2+) from stands for each successive hunt from that stand for that year (older bucks seen per hunt). Notice what a drastic reduction there is between the first time a stand is hunted and the second. In addition, the sighting rate continues to decline with each successive hunt. Now that sighting rate never falls to zero. There's always a chance of seeing an older buck from a stand, even on the 10th time it's hunted. But statistically, the chance of seeing an older buck is much higher the 1st time the stand is hunted is compared to the 4th or 5th. In fact, on average, the sighting rate declines 69% from the 1st hunt to the 5th hunt. Recalculating the data for only bucks 3 1/2+ years old finds the same decline, about 64%.

Now that doesn't mean there aren't those very unique stands - usually involving an escape route pinch point, or a stand with a couple hundred yard view across agricultural fields - where it can be as good the 5th time it's hunted as the 1st time, but those type of stand set-ups are the exception rather than the rule.

UNfortunately, due to limited area at our farm, it necessitates that the same stand be hunted at least 10x per year, but probably more.

In your data, did that 2nd and 3rd hunt drop off have caveats, like if the stand were to be hunted 5 times, but each was 2 weeks apart?

 

[BSK]

UNfortunately, due to limited area at our farm, it necessitates that the same stand be hunted at least 10x per year, but probably more.

In your data, did that 2nd and 3rd hunt drop off have caveats, like if the stand were to be hunted 5 times, but each was 2 weeks apart?

I have not used time limits (time between hunts from a stand) in my analysis.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

I'm going to defend Headhunter's thoughts a bit here, based on my assumption he likely hunts "higher" than most hunters.

I have found that wind direction typically becomes much less an issue, the higher up a tree you hunt. I commonly have older deer directly downwind from me, within bow-range, never smell me, IF I'm 20-something feet high in my climber. Where possible, I often hunt 30-feet high.

IMO, in most close-range setups (under 50 yards), being over 20 feet high is critical, and there seems to be something almost magical in going over 22 feet.

At least for archery & muzzleloader, and/or anywhere I'm expecting the deer to be under 100 yds, my most common tree-climbing height is about 23 feet, and higher is preferred to lower. Since this is impossible with many trees, I often just pick a different tree in a different spot, just so can get higher up. The most recent morning I hunted, I climbed up to exactly 30 feet before settling in, and in a particular tree I hadn't hunted in almost exactly 1 year, and won't hunt again this year.

In many cases, your scent will blow over & above the deer, then become more diluted at all downrange distances, as compared to if you're on the ground or not as high above it. Your scent molecules actually "stick" and stick more to any vegetation or surfaces the closer they are to the source.

I completely agree on stand height, LBLman. Some of my stands are way up there. In part, for the reasonings you mentioned, but also because they are too high for our other hunters

 

[TheLBLman]

Another way you can typically less disturb deer using near a stand location is to not leave the stand site until between 12:30 & 1:30 pm. Should you be coming in for an afternoon hunt, be set up @ 1:30 to 2pm.

The wind can be your friend.
If you come & go when there is a bit stronger wind blowing, such as mid-day vs. mid-morning, the wind helps dilute your scent around the stand site, as well as covering your sounds.

During the rut, I often stay put on a stand the entire day.
Commonly have deer downwind of me in the late afternoon, without their smelling me.
But by staying all day, not only have I killed a significant number of mature bucks during mid-day, by have actual got two hunts from a spot with only have the disturbance (if you consider each half-day to be a hunting period).

 

[Mescalero]

You nailed it. Don't believe the experts. Deer do as deer wants to. They don't read the books.

Said like an "expert". LoL.

 

[wobblegobble]

I must be lucky because I will hunt the same stand everyday sometimes and they do not care but I have noticed older bucks walking around cameras in the past.

 

[Headhunter]

I'm going to defend Headhunter's thoughts a bit here, based on my assumption he likely hunts "higher" than most hunters.

I have found that wind direction typically becomes much less an issue, the higher up a tree you hunt. I commonly have older deer directly downwind from me, within bow-range, never smell me, IF I'm 20-something feet high in my climber. Where possible, I often hunt 30-feet high.

IMO, in most close-range setups (under 50 yards), being over 20 feet high is critical, and there seems to be something almost magical in going over 22 feet.

At least for archery & muzzleloader, and/or anywhere I'm expecting the deer to be under 100 yds, my most common tree-climbing height is about 23 feet, and higher is preferred to lower. Since this is impossible with many trees, I often just pick a different tree in a different spot, just so can get higher up. The most recent morning I hunted, I climbed up to exactly 30 feet before settling in, and in a particular tree I hadn't hunted in almost exactly 1 year, and won't hunt again this year.

In many cases, your scent will blow over & above the deer, then become more diluted at all downrange distances, as compared to if you're on the ground or not as high above it. Your scent molecules actually "stick" and stick more to any vegetation or surfaces the closer they are to the source.

Another thing: The wind direction typically shifts dramatically while you are on stand. Being higher up just minimizes the problems this can cause.

Yes, there are many "downsides" to hunting from a higher perch, so each "hunt" is weighed based on all the options. Since I cannot find a "safe" ladder stand over 21 feet, that largely rules out most ladder-stand hunting for me personally. Never mind I do often hunt from the ground, and do that more than I hunt from ladder stands.

I've said this many times:

The best way to ruin a great spot is to place a ladder stand in it.

This is in part because the wind will typically shift around,
no matter how it was forecast when you decided to hunt that spot.

Another part of how it ruins the spot is via the ladder stand being placed,
it becomes a more "convenient" spot to hunt, then over-hunt.

Lastly, it is seen by other hunters (often including trespassers), who will now start hunting a "spot"
they didn't and maybe wouldn't previously, just because it has now become "convenient"
for them, too.

By contrast, packing in, climbing, descending, & packing out a climbing stand daily is the absolute least "convenient" way of hunting, as it requires getting up earlier, and more "work" with each hunt. For me, it has generally been the most effective way to hunt "undisturbed" deer.
Just have to get up and get going a little earlier with each outing.

Yes, there are exceptions to everything said above.
But most set-ups are not exceptions.

I hunt from whatever height is needed, whatever height the situation needs. From the ground to higher than most will even consider, highest I ever hung a lock on was just over 50 ft, measured. Many places I have hunted and several I still hunt are either from the ground or 10 to 15' from the ground, going higher limits visibility.

My best bowkill came from the ground and several other nice bucks and a pile of does I killed from the ground with a bow, no blinds either. Most all my bowkills from the ground were seeing the deer and figuring how to either to sneak up on them or get to where they were going and cut them off.
I am 55 and don't spend as much time hunting from the ground with a bow as I did when I was younger, but in my younger days I was a fair "indian".

 

[Headhunter]

Our mature buck sighting rates are incredible low. Not because we don't have them, but because 1) we put far more hunting pressure on our place than the neighbors do; and 2) Our visibility is extremely limited. Most stands it would be rare to be able to see a deer beyond 60 yards.

I hunt a couple places like that and it is tough. One place was recently bulldozed, I know of one good buck (meaning over 130" it was actually 140" and I missed a giant, 150 class buck with a bow that I blew the shot, 18 yards, don't ask, that one hurt) that was killed there and I passed on several nice bucks, but never was able to close the deal on a couple bucks I know used the land, I know they were there because either I saw them while driving by or friends did.

 

[Tn_Va_Hunter]

Funny reading this thread. The big 10 my son killed on youth day this year was always on cam at night in the lower field. That evening. We decided to sit on the top field. Low and behold. He came out 75 yards above the lower field shooting house we hunted that morning.

Making the change to the evening stand wasn't because we hunted the bottom that morning. My son simply didn't want to walk back up the big hill again lol. But it all paid off in the end.

 

[catman529]

Another thing:

The general habitat of the general area, including how much is contiguous deer habitat.

When there exists several square miles of contiguous deer habit, over which deer may freely roam, they will generally be more "sensitive" to human disturbances, such as over-hunting a specific spot.

But when deer have a limited range dues to things such as housing subdivisions, and major movement barriers restricting their range, they are often much less effected by human intrusion to specific spots. Some of this can be habituation to humans, such as the deer which spend most their time in highly protected areas from hunting, but will frequent human encounters.

There can be huge difference in the hunting skills required to consistently have "urban" deer at close range vs. more "wilderness" deer.

I've had suburbs deer pick up on me pretty quick. They can be as slick as any deer. People walking by on the trails don't bother them, but go off in the woods and those old does start stomping around knowing someone's hiding where they're not supposed to be. I used to have a ladder stand in a bedding area in the city and I had to move it cause the does figured it out pretty quick.