P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting

II kinda think it's funny how in no way did our fathers and grandfathers and so on reject technology. Some ppl get all worked up because new technologies come out that help the hunter more so than traditional methods did.

However I do agree high fences are not ethical in many situations however on a 20-30,000 acres ranch.. I don't really see a problem with it... I still probably wouldn't do it, just not my thing... It's also a big difference between places that raise deer, and places with 100% wild herds...

I'm glad p&y doesn't support it tho..
However I don't support all of p&y's rules...
 
JandSCattleCo said:
BSK said:
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.
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In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?
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lol some of those things you mentioned have hurt more hunters then helped and the number one thing on that list that have hurt more then help for the most part is trail cameras. granted a lot of rifles that can shoot at 500 yards. that doesn't mean the shooter can. youd be surpised how many people don't have a range finder or even tree stands. scent free stuff doesn't work 100 percent and never will I don't think. and people are still killing deer in blue jeans and a flannel shirt. imo all of your statements are irrelevant.
 
deerhunter10 said:
JandSCattleCo said:
BSK said:
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.
Click to expand...

In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?
Click to expand...

lol some of those things you mentioned have hurt more hunters then helped and the number one thing on that list that have hurt more then help for the most part is trail cameras. granted a lot of rifles that can shoot at 500 yards. that doesn't mean the shooter can. youd be surpised how many people don't have a range finder or even tree stands. scent free stuff doesn't work 100 percent and never will I don't think. and people are still killing deer in blue jeans and a flannel shirt. imo all of your statements are irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Well that's your OPINION. As I said earlier, just because you DONT use it doesn't mean you can't. I can't help if you can't use your rifle to its fullest range potential, don't use a range finder, etc.

Hunters still have the OPTION to use these tools.
 
JandSCattleCo said:
deerhunter10 said:
JandSCattleCo said:
BSK said:
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.
Click to expand...

In essence though, what is Fair Chase?

Do we use a rifle that can shoot accurately to 500+ yards? Yes
Do we use scent control clothing, soaps, etc? Yes
Do we use camoflagued clothing that hides our silouette? Yes
Do we use lightweight aluminum / steel tree stands to hide us in trees / ground blinds for on the ground? Yes
Do we use electronics that can range a deer and tell us exactly how far away the aniaml is? Yes
Do we use Trail Cameras that tell us exactly what time an animal moved through an area, what the temperature is, moon phase etc? Yes

In my opinion, there is nothing "fair" about it.

I completely agree, where is the point of fair chase?
Click to expand...

lol some of those things you mentioned have hurt more hunters then helped and the number one thing on that list that have hurt more then help for the most part is trail cameras. granted a lot of rifles that can shoot at 500 yards. that doesn't mean the shooter can. youd be surpised how many people don't have a range finder or even tree stands. scent free stuff doesn't work 100 percent and never will I don't think. and people are still killing deer in blue jeans and a flannel shirt. imo all of your statements are irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Well that's your OPINION. As I said earlier, just because you DONT use it doesn't mean you can't. I can't help if you can't use your rifle to its fullest range potential, don't use a range finder, etc.

Hunters still have the OPTION to use these tools.
Click to expand...

so what would you consider fair chase then? recurve moccasins and a stone as a broad head? Ive never heard this argument just wondering. im not trying to be sarcastic at all I really am curious.
 
BHC said:
However I do agree high fences are not ethical in many situations however on a 20-30,000 acres ranch.. I don't really see a problem with it... I still probably wouldn't do it, just not my thing... It's also a big difference between places that raise deer, and places with 100% wild herds...

I'm glad p&y doesn't support it tho..
However I don't support all of p&y's rules...
Click to expand...

I agree with P&Y and B&C not accepting entries from high-fences. Although I think very large high-fences are very much "fair chase," I think it is a heck of a lot easier and clearer to just say "no high-fenced deer" than to try and decide where "fair chase" begins inside larger high-fences.
 
BSK said:
Canned "hunts" disgust me. The problem is, when does a high-fenced property become a canned hunt? I've seen high-fenced properties where the hunting is no different than on an unfenced property. But at some point, the fenced area becomes too small for the hunting to be considered "fair chase." I just don't know where that point is.
Click to expand...

X2!
 
I'm glad the rules are what they are-no subjectivity. There are too many factors even if you don't take size into consideration.

There are high fenced places in Texas where you could be dropped off with a backpack full of food and still starve to death before you ever found a fence. That's not the same as a five acre enclosure.
 
JandSCattleCo said:
Heck if I know. This why I was agreeing with BSK. Where is the line of "fair" drawn?
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i agree what is the definition

bow hunter use range finders all the time especially out west like on mule deer hunts

what is fair and who decides?

i have had several times in the past non hunters (not anti) say i dont hunt fair with a high powered rifle great optics

the deer dont have a chance sad thing is unless something happens the deer dont have a chance
 
BSK said:
Personally, I have no interest in hunting inside of a fenced property, no matter how large the acreage enclosed. But thinking some of these large high-fences don't provide a perfectly "fair chase" environment is foolishness.
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Foolishness uh? I assume you do some work for high fence ranchers and you don't want to rub them the wrong way.

So you think the stakes are even for a free range deer versus a high fence deer? Not sure how that logic works, that high fence deer (regardless the size of the area) is more protected than the free range deer. Not to mention it is a lot easier to know what is in that high fence operation versus the other. Its like blind luck versus higher odds and a high fence has higher odds...therefore I just can't see the fair chase in it.


Fair chase needs a true definition. If free range is not in that definition then yes, some of those large high fence operations can offer "fair chase" and I completely agree with you. IMO fair chase and free range are connected.
 
AT Hiker said:
BSK said:
Personally, I have no interest in hunting inside of a fenced property, no matter how large the acreage enclosed. But thinking some of these large high-fences don't provide a perfectly "fair chase" environment is foolishness.
Click to expand...

Foolishness uh? I assume you do some work for high fence ranchers and you don't want to rub them the wrong way.

So you think the stakes are even for a free range deer versus a high fence deer? Not sure how that logic works, that high fence deer (regardless the size of the area) is more protected than the free range deer. Not to mention it is a lot easier to know what is in that high fence operation versus the other. Its like blind luck versus higher odds and a high fence has higher odds...therefore I just can't see the fair chase in it.
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Obviously, you don't know me well, and you've never been inside a large high fence. First, I don't care what my clients think of my views. If I did care, I wouldn't so freely express them. If they don't like my views, then don't hire me. Second, inside thousands and thousands of acres high-fenced, many deer have no idea they are contained. Their movements are not being constrained. I've worked inside high-fenced properties in TX that are so large, the majority of the deer inside the fence have never seen the fence. If a deer is never constrained by a fence, how can the presence of the fence effect their behavior?

Again, I've seen high-fenced properties large enough that the hunting is no different inside the fence than outside with the same level of hunter density and harvest control. THAT is the difference inside many high-fences--very tightly controlled hunter density and harvest control--not constraint of the animal. That said, personally, I have no interest in hunting inside a high-fence, no matter the size. It just doesn't feel right to me personally.


Fair chase needs a true definition. If free range is not in that definition then yes, some of those large high fence operations can offer "fair chase."
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Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT in favor of changing the legal definition of fair chase. I have absolutely no problem with defining fair chase as requiring free range. In fact, I agree with that. I'm just saying that in reality, some high-fenced areas will produce a fair-chase experience.
 
I have been in a high fence in New Mexico, never hunted it, just had an opportunity to visit while driving through. The area had some of the largest elk I have ever seen, I can assure you those elk likely had no idea they were in a fence (they were not a migratory herd so that helped). But those elk are in a controlled environment, just like a high fence whitetail venture.

That is my point, as Im sure a large high fence ranch has the same issues we "free rangers" have (nocturnal, etc) but those animals are in a controlled environment. That has its pro's and con's for sure, but to say it is fair chase to me is far from the reality. I will agree and say its as close to reality as you can get, but nothing natural about it at the end of the day.

No I dont know you at all, I didnt mean to offend you either if I came across that way.
 
I've hunted some fair chase (by definition) that were anything but challenging. Peninsulas surrounded by water and woods bordered by residential neighborhoods come to mind.
 
Re: P&Y Club statement on High Fence hunting

TX300mag said:
I've hunted some fair chase (by definition) that were anything but challenging.
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And that's it once a fenced property gets above a certain size. The lower challenge is not due to the animals being constrained behind a fence. The lower challenge is the unnaturally low hunting and harvest pressure. And I've certainly seen free-range properties that fall into that category--where hunter densities are so low, and harvest pressure so controlled (no bucks harvested younger than full maturity) that many older bucks wander around in daylight with near impunity, displaying little fear of Man. Is hunting in that environment anything like what most hunters face? Absolutely not.
 
I support P&Y (B&C as well) in their rules. I'm generally opposed to high fences, but favor property rights of owners (it gets really conflicting in situations when you fence someone else IN).

I guess I'm not a fan of blanket ABSOLUTE statements that hunting outside a fence is ALWAYS more challenging than hunting inside one. I think broad generalizations are hurtful to both sides of the issue.
 
I believe that even though I high fence area may be 10,000 acres, and the deer inside do not know they are fenced, it still isn't "fair-chase" in my book. That is because the owners control what is killed and who hunts, as well as can manipulate the genetics and nutrition inside that fence.

I also believe that the big time hunting operations that you go to up in the mid-west that say they are "100% fair-chase, no high fence" are not fair chase in my opinion just because they can control so much on who hunts it and what is killed off of it.

To me fair-chase is public land, or the small farms that a single buck may range onto 5-6 or more other peoples property. And also they turn almost nocturnal until the rut comes in. This is fair chase. What most everyday hunters deal with.
 
Every club has a right to its own rules.

I appreciate a trophy, but I really enjoy the feeling of having my family eat something I harvested. If someone eats what they harvest--whether from private, public, or high-fence land--I don't give a flipping rip about it. If someone doesn't want to eat meat off of high-fenced land, perhaps that same person should re-think any grocery story meat. High-fences look like wide open plains compared to those confined spaces.

I don't want trophies so badly that I'd be willing to pay those kinds of prices, but I don't have the time that some people do to get out, scout, and chase one huge deer, in particular. In my experience, more often than not, there exists a relatively abundant neglect of family and responsibility in order to hunt like some people do.

For the guy who loves hunting and the amazing harvest feeling, but maybe only has one or two days per season, total, to go, I value his commitment to his family and his responsibilities far more than I value the meat-heads who literally leave house and home for a significant portion of the season over these four-legged bone-heads.

I also value the person who's willing to pay to get his harvest far more than I value the poachers.

All this to say, it's my opinion that there are FAR worse, far less-ethical things than legal high-fence hunting.
 
jlmustain said:
In my experience, more often than not, there exists a relatively abundant neglect of family and responsibility in order to hunt like some people do.
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I understand exactly what you are saying, but you would probably label me as such, though trophy hunting is not issue...I just love hunting and being outside. However, my priorities are in order and my family is fully aware of my addiction and most of them share it with me.

I do think some folks go over board with the trophy thing and their family and work suffer from it. I also think they miss the main point of hunting.

I dont have an issue with someone hunting a high fence either, but by no means is it fair chase. Thats like going to a sorority party to pick up ladies...actually thats more like baiting! ;)
 

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