POA/POI change from lead to TSS?

[Boll Weevil]

For you guys that switched from lead to TSS, did you notice a change in POI? Example: A gun zeroed w/lead consistently throws a TSS pattern 6" left of the bull.

 

[elknturkey]

All the guns I've shot, shot different with tss than lead. High, low, left, right etc.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Like other aspects of patterning, every gun is unique. I've shot some that stayed dead on and some that were off by half the paper. You thinking about a Tungsten/Lead combo in your O/U?

 

[Boll Weevil]

Exactly what I was thinking SS; setting up my new 20ga turkey thumper and might have run into a limitation. In the past, I've only shot lead out of my 12ga OU and POA/POI for both my long and short barrel was true. Different load for top and bottom but both were copper plated lead and they shot identical.

If TSS and lead do indeed shoot different, might have a problem with the combo idea.

 

[Andy S.]

^^^ What they said. Better yet, every different shell, even with TSS in all of them, could potentially change POI. The type of powder used, how much powder, burn rate of powder, primer, etc, can all have some change, albeit most will be minor, it could be enough to cause a miss. I will not turkey hunt with a gun I have not checked POA=POI. We all put too much time, money, effort and sacrifice into turkey hunting to miss due to POI being off. Good luck and keep us posted on how things go.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Another question, this time regarding velocity. Apex has a 3/4oz load hustling along at 1500fps. Federal and Browning have 1.5oz loads at a more moderate 1200fps. Longbeard and Hevi loads, 1.25oz, only 1000fps. What velocity do you guys shoot for and why is TSS loaded so much faster than lead or Hevi? Does it have to be loaded hot to pattern well?

I don't know much about TSS but trying to learn all I can so thanks for your patience with all my questions.

 

[Levee Jumper]

My 2 cents.

The more dense the shot the less importance there is on muzzle velocity because it retains its velocity much better downrange than less dense shot. Thats the reason that all your steel loads are screaming up around 1,500 fps. Steel doesn't necessarily pattern better at high velocities, but you have to push it faster to get your kinetic energy/penetration, etc. since its so light in weight.

Dense (Heavy) shot also benefits from both being substantially smaller thus less wind resistance and better penetration.

Generally, slowing shot down makes it pattern better than speeding it up. TSS 9's even at 1,000 fps has adequate penetration at hunting distances.

IMO Your example of APEX loading TSS at 1,500 fps is beyond stupid and is largely gimmickry.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

What velocity do you guys shoot for and why is TSS loaded so much faster than lead or Hevi? Does it have to be loaded hot to pattern well?

I don't know much about TSS but trying to learn all I can so thanks for your patience with all my questions.

It absolutely does NOT need to be loaded hot to pattern well. In fact, increased speed usually tends to cause the pattern to decline. From what I hear and read from handloaders creating loads, the goal is to get enough speed to remain 100% lethal at the desired max yardage but no faster. Most loads I shoot (load data from others who developed and tested the loads) come in at 1100-1200 fps. The .410 load I shoot is right around 1000 fps.

The generally accepted rule of thumb among hand loaders is 1.25" of penetration into ballistics gel = effective/lethal for turkeys. There is a ballistics program (KPY Ballistics) that calculates that based on speed and pellet size/density. I cant remember the exact yardage, but TSS 9s with a muzzle velocity of 1200 will maintain that level of penetration well past 70 yards. So anything beyond 1200 fps is pointless and possibly counterproductive.

The Apex load is fast because it's only 3/4oz. People who don't understand the ballistics will buy it assuming faster is better. But Apex would be well served to back off the powder in that load bringing it down around 1200fps and simultaneously reducing recoil.

I would focus on 3" 1 1/2oz or 1 5/16 oz loads of T9s in the 1100-1200 fps range.

 

[Andy S.]

What velocity do you guys shoot for.......

1100 fps is PLENTY with TSS.

......and why is TSS loaded so much faster than lead or Hevi?

I have no clue, just wasted powder, more recoil, and greater odds of pulling/jerking in my opinion.

Does it have to be loaded hot to pattern well?

No

 

[Andy S.]

The Apex load is fast because it's only 3/4oz. People who don't understand the ballistics will buy it assuming faster is better.

Assuming all other things remain constant, the profit margin on this shell is greater for APEX.

Also, as bad as I hate to see it, I think we have a small subset of hunters who look at TSS as a guaranteed 70-90 yard load, thus higher velocity equates to less hold over at those distances.

 

[megalomaniac]

FYI, the federal TSS straight #9's 1.5 oz is often advertised at 1200 fps at some online retailers, however, the boxes I've received this year are only 1100fps printed on the box.

I've never shot them yet, only the reduced recoil 1000 fps TSS #9's.... and man, those reduced velocity loads have been brutal on birds... 14 for 14 the past 2 years. Had to finish one of those off with a stick chasing it down due to a poor shot from Ethan, wasn't the shell's fault.

I see no need to spend the extra $$$ for the apex or nitro. Factory federals are just fine. With the rebate, you can get them for around $5.50 each.

 

[Boll Weevil]

This is all extremely helpful and makes perfect sense; thanks all. Hadn't thought about the profit margin on a 3/4 oz load...packing more powder is way cheaper than packing more TSS pellets but I bet folks don't even consider that.

 

[JDUB]

My beretta/Indian creek combo shoots longbeard XR and TSS almost the same. So if I'm hunting woods and know the shot won't be over 20-30yds I just use the XR. I shot a bird yesterday in a field with the TSS at 40-45yds. I patterned the gun out to 60 yds just to see and both did better than expected but I don't shoot that far.

 

[Andy S.]

My beretta/Indian creek combo shoots longbeard XR and TSS almost the same.

That is always a good thing, you are fortunate in that regard.