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Sometimes you need to talk to the neighbors......

I hunt more than 125 acres, but nothing close to 2,000, and we have been able to greatly improve the quality of our hunting by doing some simple things. Now, our part of NW middle TN does have a lot of deer, so that helps.

1, we have serious cover. There is a 60 acre patch of that thick, nasty, western middle TN deep hollows that we simply don't go into. Now we do hunt some of the exits of that cover, but we just don't go in it. Some of it hasn't been walked in for over 2 years, and that was only to retrieve a deer. Sanctuary is important. I've killed many a nice buck that was coming out of the thick cover or was searching it looking for a doe.

2, we stopped shooting yearlings. 20 years ago we hammered the does pretty hard. Now, we are far more particular about that but we take several does off of the place if the herd can stand it. We then stopped shooting 2.5 year olds. I think that alone made the biggest of differences. Let a buck get passed 2.5 and who knows what will happen. And I will be the first to say that isn't for everybody. However, if you can stand to let a buck of two walk, who knows what might come from that.

3, we don't overhunt and we switch up stands regularly.

4, we talked to the neighbors and they by and large are abiding by the same practices as we are. One older couple want meat and usually end up killing a couple of yearling bucks. Good for them. They are happy, and are usually done hunting before the rut even starts. Most other neighbors are after bigger deer. It's crazy how this has changed. 20 years ago opening morning of rifle season sounding like a war. Now we will hear maybe 5-10 shots maximum for the week.
 
bowtechgump said:
I guess that my point is, somewhere between my youth and today we lost the reason for getting up at 4AM. Remember when it was important to supply the food to your family? Now it is honestly just what are willing to spend and do for that "big" buck.
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It's never been just about food. I'm looking at a set of hunting magazines right now on my desk from the 1950s, and there are not pictures of does on the cover.
 
BSK said:
Oh, it started much earlier than that! Back in the late 90s, when I was working for a group that did private land management all over the country, we got hired to help manage a big place in southern Central Florida. The club members would go on and on and on about how their neighbors were the major problem. The neighbors shot everything. Then by shear coincidence, we got hired to manage the neighbor's land as well. All the hunters on the neighboring property did was complain about how it was their neighbors who were the problem! Two adjoining properties - both being managed for older bucks - yet each absolutely believed the other was killing everything that walked.
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This is actually the norm and not a unique situation.

There are WAY too many factors to take into consideration before you can say for certain your neighbor possibly hunting different than you is ruining things for you.

I'm
 
DeerCamp said:
It's never been just about food. I'm looking at a set of hunting magazines right now on my desk from the 1950s, and there are not pictures of does on the cover.
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Where I'm from there is an outcropped rock that is smooth over its entire surface about the size of a big trampoline. Carved into it is numerous ancient petroglyphs, several of which depict giant antlered deer and even what's been interpreted to be a shaman or chief wearing huge antlers on his head. Go anywhere in Europe and tour some old castles and you'll see antlers decorating the halls & walls. We humans have an affinity for antlers. The bigger the better. It's literally in our DNA. Just like folks say you can't cull genetics out of a deer herd, you can't shame the love of antlers out of my DNA.
 
LenS said:
I hunt more than 125 acres, but nothing close to 2,000, and we have been able to greatly improve the quality of our hunting by doing some simple things. Now, our part of NW middle TN does have a lot of deer, so that helps.

1, we have serious cover. There is a 60 acre patch of that thick, nasty, western middle TN deep hollows that we simply don't go into. Now we do hunt some of the exits of that cover, but we just don't go in it. Some of it hasn't been walked in for over 2 years, and that was only to retrieve a deer. Sanctuary is important. I've killed many a nice buck that was coming out of the thick cover or was searching it looking for a doe.

2, we stopped shooting yearlings. 20 years ago we hammered the does pretty hard. Now, we are far more particular about that but we take several does off of the place if the herd can stand it. We then stopped shooting 2.5 year olds. I think that alone made the biggest of differences. Let a buck get passed 2.5 and who knows what will happen. And I will be the first to say that isn't for everybody. However, if you can stand to let a buck of two walk, who knows what might come from that.

3, we don't overhunt and we switch up stands regularly.

4, we talked to the neighbors and they by and large are abiding by the same practices as we are. One older couple want meat and usually end up killing a couple of yearling bucks. Good for them. They are happy, and are usually done hunting before the rut even starts. Most other neighbors are after bigger deer. It's crazy how this has changed. 20 years ago opening morning of rifle season sounding like a war. Now we will hear maybe 5-10 shots maximum for the week.
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You are 100% right. Shooting 2.5 year old bucks is the single biggest factor in what your buck population looks like.

A LOT of bucks make it to 2.5, but many of them don't make it to 3.5. Once they get to 3.5, their behavior greatly reduces encounters with hunters.

For most folks, it is hard not to shoot 2.5 year olds when that's all you are seeing though.
 
TX300mag said:
This is actually the norm and not a unique situation.

There are WAY too many factors to take into consideration before you can say for certain your neighbor possibly hunting different than you is ruining things for you.

I'm
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I'm not a 1 buck limit guy. I'm probably a 2 buck limit guy, but also wouldn't go to meetings to argue against a 3 buck limit.

I think that the limits should be based on biology, harvest data, and the inability of one or a few people to significantly impact the hunting quality of the people that hunt around them.

While we might not want trophy minded people setting limits, I also know the "Can't eat the horns guy" that paradoxically passes a doe to shoot a yearling buck and posts pictures of it to facebook.

I know a bunch of people that shoot deer but don't eat venison. I know some people that shoot the first deer they see and are happy to have a full freezer.

In my view, bag limits should be set to accomodate most hunters wishes while preventing any particular group from delcaring victory.
 
DeerCamp said:
You are 100% right. Shooting 2.5 year old bucks is the single biggest factor in what your buck population looks like.

A LOT of bucks make it to 2.5, but many of them don't make it to 3.5. Once they get to 3.5, their behavior greatly reduces encounters with hunters.

For most folks, it is hard not to shoot 2.5 year olds when that's all you are seeing though.
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I completely agree. Personally, I no longer shoot 2 1/2 year-old bucks. But I have a bunch of family members that only get to hunt for a week each year. I have no problem with them shooting a 2 1/2. I'm not sure I could guarantee myself an above average 3 1/2 year-old buck in a week's time.
 
knightrider said:
Not everyones goals are the same. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Your neighbors dont have to hunt the way you want or see fit on THEIR side of the fence! Once people started naming deer and having"hitlist" is when the neighbor hating began ,because people starting thinking the bucks were "their deer" because they came across their property at times. Just be happy for everyone who is hunting ethically, legally, and are happy with what they kill.
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The neighbor hating thing is interesting.

We have a neighbor who has historically shot a bunch of deer my wife and daughters have passed. He's 60+ years old and apparently never shoots does. I have solid reasons to believe he doesn't always check them, and from what I gather he gives the deer to other people to process. Considering he posts the kills on every social media platform in existence, I can reasonably assume his intentions.

While I don't think we ever consider these deer "our deer", it's hard knowing that the management practices around him are the primary reason he shoots as many deer as he does. It's hard not to think "if he would just stop shooting everything with antlers, he might actually kill something to show off since that's him MO". It's hard not to think we are wasting our time.

The truth is, here in unit CWD we have the ability to dramatically alter HIS hunting success.. There have been a few times where I've thought that if we just set up on the travel routes on our place that take the deer to him, and just start hammering them, maybe after a while of not seeing deer he will get tired of hunting here. I have permission to hunt both sides of him. I mean, we could light the place up and I'd have no problem finding good homes for the venison. And with 3 bucks tags a piece, that's 12 bucks for my house. We certainly see enough bucks over the course of a season to fill those 12 tags.

But we don't do that because it's self defeating and as @megalomaniac pointed out, doesn't leave it better than we found it.

Meanwhile, when my other neighbors who seem to have slightly different motivations kill a buck, I'm genuinely happy for them and get in on the celebration. In fact, i constantly share pictures of deer we are seeing in hopes they are fortunate enough to cross paths with them.

Perhaps it's because they are considerate, friendly and there's a feeling that we are in together, even if we have slightly different management practices.
 
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DeerCamp said:
I'm not a 1 buck limit guy. I'm probably a 2 buck limit guy, but also wouldn't go to meetings to argue against a 3 buck limit.

I think that the limits should be based on biology, harvest data, and the inability of one or a few people to significantly impact the hunting quality of the people that hunt around them.
Click to expand...
I believe I was one of the first people in TN pushing the idea of passing up young bucks to produce more older bucks. I've stuck with that ever since. However, looking at long-term population censuses versus harvest data, I've come to the conclusion that it isn't as important what age bucks are killed, it just matters how many total bucks are taken out of the population (percent of the buck population removed). You can advance buck age structure just as quickly by limiting total harvest as you can simply manage the age of harvested bucks.
 
knightrider said:
Not everyones goals are the same. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Your neighbors dont have to hunt the way you want or see fit on THEIR side of the fence! Once people started naming deer and having"hitlist" is when the neighbor hating began ,because people starting thinking the bucks were "their deer" because they came across their property at times. Just be happy for everyone who is hunting ethically, legally, and are happy with what they kill.
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Those guys are funny. It's "their deer" because they get trail cam pics of it at 3am and gave it some stupid name like "Big Brows"
 
I don't know about hunting for survival, I don't and don't have to but...the best meal I ever had is bacon wrapped philly jap doves, I could eat my weight in'em and as far as I know you can't buy mourning doves, the only way I know to have that meal is to shoot'em. I've tried to make that with chicken thighs,we even tried chicken livers thinking maybe but no...
Same with squirrel gumbo, can't buy squirrels that I know of but a shotgun or a 22 will get them for you.
 
BSK said:
I believe I was one of the first people in TN pushing the idea of passing up young bucks to produce more older bucks. I've stuck with that ever since. However, looking at long-term population censuses versus harvest data, I've come to the conclusion that it isn't as important what age bucks are killed, it just matters how many total bucks are taken out of the population (percent of the buck population removed). You can advance buck age structure just as quickly by limiting total harvest as you can simply manage the age of harvested bucks.
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BSK, I can't say it was you with 100% certainty, but I'll give you credit.....someone on TNdeer said something along the line that the simplest and easiest practice to improve your deer herd was to let a yearling buck have a pass. Over 20 years ago I allowed my first yearling buck to walk. It was difficult then, but now I'm looking for any characteristic which will help identify him in the coming years.
 
DeerCamp said:
The neighbor hating thing is interesting.

We have a neighbor who has historically shot a bunch of deer my wife and daughters have passed. He's 60+ years old and apparently never shoots does. I have solid reasons to believe he doesn't always check them, and from what I gather he gives the deer to other people to process. Considering he posts the kills on every social media platform in existence, I can reasonably assume his intentions.

While I don't think we ever consider these deer "our deer", it's hard knowing that the management practices around him are the primary reason he shoots as many deer as he does. It's hard not to think "if he would just stop shooting everything with antlers, he might actually kill something to show off since that's him MO". It's hard not to think we are wasting our time.

The truth is, here in unit CWD we have the ability to dramatically alter HIS hunting success.. There have been a few times where I've thought that if we just set up on the travel routes on our place that take the deer to him, and just start hammering them, maybe after a while of not seeing deer he will get tired of hunting here. I have permission to hunt both sides of him. I mean, we could light the place up and I'd have no problem finding good homes for the venison. And with 3 bucks tags a piece, that's 12 bucks for my house. We certainly see enough bucks over the course of a season to fill those 12 tags.

But we don't do that because it's self defeating and as @megalomaniac pointed out, doesn't leave it better than we found it.

Meanwhile, when my other neighbors who seem to have slightly different motivations kill a buck, I'm genuinely happy for them and get in on the celebration. In fact, i constantly share pictures of deer we are seeing in hopes they are fortunate enough to cross paths with them.

Perhaps it's because they are considerate, friendly and there's a feeling that we are in together, even if we have slightly different management practices.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you have cool neighbors 😁
 
LenS said:
BSK, I can't say it was you with 100% certainty, but I'll give you credit.....someone on TNdeer said something along the line that the simplest and easiest practice to improve your deer herd was to let a yearling buck have a pass. Over 20 years ago I allowed my first yearling buck to walk. It was difficult then, but now I'm looking for any characteristic which will help identify him in the coming years.
Click to expand...
I was preaching QDM harvest guidelines as early as 1993. However, TNdeer didn't start until summer of 1998. I've been preaching it from day one. And when I first started talking about it on TNdeer, hunters thought I was insane. Now, they still think I'm insane, but not for my stance on QDM! But honestly, simply limiting the buck harvest in an area increases buck age structure just as fast as passing all yearlings.
 
BSK said:
I was preaching QDM harvest guidelines as early as 1993. However, TNdeer didn't start until summer of 1998. I've been preaching it from day one. And when I first started talking about it on TNdeer, hunters thought I was insane. Now, they still think I'm insane, but not for my stance on QDM! But honestly, simply limiting the buck harvest in an area increases buck age structure just as fast as passing all yearlings.
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It must be working on my place. My normal harvest for each season for several years was a mature buck, or the best buck in the area. Then for the last 2 years I just didn't see what I would consider shooting. FF to this season. Low hunt times in the stand, but killed a good buck opening day of rifle, and have seen a total of 6 mature bucks so far.
 

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