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prstide said:
Isn't that the dominant gobbler theory you just said you don't believe?
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Its my understanding the 'dominant gobbler theory' is that the hens observe every available male bird on the landscape, then choose the most suitable male, then only allow only that particular male to mate with her. If he is killed, the hen must start all over, reassess every adult male on the landscape, then pick the next most suitable male. If he is killed prior to mating, she has to start all over again without mating and pick the next male in line. If he is killed, and was the last one, she never mates.

I don't hang on Chamberlains every word, so maybe I'm not getting the 'dominant gobbler theory' so many are focused on (either in support or refute).

All I know is what happens in the real world... not some theory or academia which may or may not apply to the real world.

Toms absolutely compete with one another PRIOR to breeding and DURING breeding (no different than every other animal species) to ensure the most fit sires the most offspring. However, just like any other animal species, a hen would rather mate with a less than optimal mate if no optimal mate is available rather than not procreate at all.

So in essence, what happens in the real world is that a hen will allow ANY tom to mate with her when she ovulates, but shows preference to the most desirable (in her mind) at the time of ovulation. She will also mate with other males during ovulation (if available) to ensure greater genetic diversity.


So.... IF the strongest and most fit male is removed before breeding.... is that good for the species? Do you think it makes no difference whatsoever?

But all this comes down to whether we put the turkeys first, or our own self interests killing them first. The only thing I put ahead of killing turkeys now is making sure I have turkeys to kill 2, 5, 10, 30 years from now.
 
megalomaniac said:
Its my understanding the 'dominant gobbler theory' is that the hens observe every available male bird on the landscape, then choose the most suitable male, then only allow only that particular male to mate with her. If he is killed, the hen must start all over, reassess every adult male on the landscape, then pick the next most suitable male. If he is killed prior to mating, she has to start all over again without mating and pick the next male in line. If he is killed, and was the last one, she never mates.

I don't hang on Chamberlains every word, so maybe I'm not getting the 'dominant gobbler theory' so many are focused on (either in support or refute).

All I know is what happens in the real world... not some theory or academia which may or may not apply to the real world.

Toms absolutely compete with one another PRIOR to breeding and DURING breeding (no different than every other animal species) to ensure the most fit sires the most offspring. However, just like any other animal species, a hen would rather mate with a less than optimal mate if no optimal mate is available rather than not procreate at all.

So in essence, what happens in the real world is that a hen will allow ANY tom to mate with her when she ovulates, but shows preference to the most desirable (in her mind) at the time of ovulation. She will also mate with other males during ovulation (if available) to ensure greater genetic diversity.


So.... IF the strongest and most fit male is removed before breeding.... is that good for the species? Do you think it makes no difference whatsoever?

But all this comes down to whether we put the turkeys first, or our own self interests killing them first. The only thing I put ahead of killing turkeys now is making sure I have turkeys to kill 2, 5, 10, 30 years from now.
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My understanding on it is that, due to social structure, when the dominant male(s) is(are) killed it resets the pecking order causing a delay in the breeding or lack of breeding for some hens.
The above scenario is exactly what happens when strutters are deployed during the first 2 weeks of season prior to hens becoming receptive to breeding.
 
I absolutely believe in the dominant gobbler theory. Our populations started declining with the onslaught of strutter decoys. Look at Alabama's trend, it begins an immediate down turn the moment they legalized decoys. Too many dominant birds killed the first two weeks leaving hens not being bred therefore less nest initiation. This of course leads to a population decline over time.

For me it's blatantly obvious and has been that way for years upon years. Also, more googans killing more birds every year. These hunters stand no chance without the decoys this leading to less available gobblers in the flock to hunt and breed.

Hell I consider myself fairly seasoned in the Turkey woods and stand almost no chance with a henned up dominant bird, especially a field bird. Dang things are brutal to kill.
 
Still haven't heard a peep in south MS. But I'm really not sure I've even been in the game. I've found one set of gobbler tracks in about 20 spots I've checked.

Also found 2 hens on a local WMA, but no tom with them. Boot tracks EVERYWHERE, even tho adult season doesnt open until Wednesday. Just insane how many folks turkey hunt nowadays.

And what's worse, sitting on feeders has become socially acceptable as a means to hunt down here. Baiting was BAD before, but it has become normalized and accepted past couple years I went to the local feed and seed store yesterday to pick up supplies for my garden. The owner asked if I went turkey hunting, then told me his grandson missed a bird yesterday. Then told me he cannot believe that only 17 turkeys eat a 50lbs sack of corn every 2 days. SMH. I think legalizing baiting for deer down here has spilled over to the mentality that's its ok to bait turkeys.
 
Populations started to decline with the increase in youtube hunters and more hunters killing limits in several states. Has this been examined? . I don't begrudge the average hunter using s decoy to kill a bird or 2. I use decoys but don't shoot jakes
 
square said:
Populations started to decline with the increase in youtube hunters and more hunters killing limits in several states. Has this been examined? . I don't begrudge the average hunter using s decoy to kill a bird or 2. I use decoys but don't shoot jakes
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One of the biggest factors in more birds being killed by more hunters has been the onslaught of male decoys. Especially strutters. YouTube is absolutely full of video evidence of birds running across fields to die that would've otherwise survived that day. To me and in my opinion the answers are so obvious as to where it all started to decline
 
square said:
Populations started to decline with the increase in youtube hunters and more hunters killing limits in several states. Has this been examined? . I don't begrudge the average hunter using s decoy to kill a bird or 2. I use decoys but don't shoot jakes
Click to expand...
Every single state game agency and/or researcher I have listened to or read their work, never touches on this point. They all seem to reference "harvest data" and never once acknowledging, which I think is very obvious, that we have more turkey hunters killing a higher percentage of the population.

IMO, this is how the house starts crumbling down. You're spending a higher and higher percentage of your resource each year, until one year there is no more resource. Unlike finances, turkeys can't be borrowed on a credit card or bailed out by the Fed.
 

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