Thoughts on spring bag limits...

8 POINTS OR BETTER":1cph3yot said:
catman529":1cph3yot said:
Mike Belt":1cph3yot said:
Cat...I like getting out there. When I worked I could only hunt weekends. If it was pouring rain I didn't hunt. If it's pouring rain or anything comes up preventing anyone in the same boat from hunting 1 or 2 of their weekends their season is shot with a 3 week season. I'd rather be able to go and only kill 2 birds as opposed to possibly not getting to go at all. Maybe Ky's bird population is still declining with a 2 bird limit and a shorter season. I don't know because I don't hunt there. If it is, and ours, then maybe the only alternative is eliminating turkey season altogether until the situation can be corrected.
I don't want a shorter season or a lower spring bag limit. Maybe a week shorter with a later start date for more undisturbed breeding, but the main thing I want to see is cut out hen hunting in most counties and relocate birds if needed.


Sent from the talk of tap

If we are to the point that we need to be relocateing birds, the tom limit definitely needs to be cut to 2 or less, no hens killed, and a shorter season.
some places should have hunting closed or a 1 bird limit but many places still have plenty of birds. If Twra would transplant some birds from the good areas to the poor ones instead of selling them to Texas, that would help a lot.


Sent from the talk of tap
 
It seems that many on here agree that nesting/brooding is the issue- and I don't disagree. The harvest flattened off about the same time that our poults in the brood surveys bottomed out around 2 poults/hen. The question is then... What can be done? What should the state do?

1. Shorten the season
Shortening the season may well result in more hens being bred. But these days must come off the front end of the season- there isn't really a biological justification to take days from the end of the season. We would still see the same "rush" of harvest during the first 2 weeks of the season, but harvest would be delayed until mid April and hopefully the hens would all have been bred by then. How does this effect nesting success?

2. Reduce the bag limit
Reducing the bag limit may well reduce the number of birds an individual kills, but how many of them would turn around and take another hunter who is less skilled or experienced? This may well recruit new blood into the sport, but we may or may not reduce the # of birds taken (see TN vs KY thread). Turkeys range shift constantly, so unless you are on a very large tract, the birds you saved may not return to the property. I see this as a quality of hunt issue- i like hearing lots of gobbling birds and having a tough time deciding which one to chase too, and I have a spot that I quit hunting this year because it dried up and only held one bird who consistently pitched across property lines. I also have a rule that I won't take more than 1 bird off any farm I hunt a year, regardless of how many I am hearing.

3. Reduce/eliminate the fall season/hen killing
I can get behind this, and I think it might help some, but I don't think this will fix all the woes. I don't fall hunt either though, so I will readily give up this opportunity. I really think our turkeys are in a down cycle and will come back. I also didnt see a ton of "extra" hens. I think the most I ran into during the season was 4 with a single gobbler, and usually just 1 or a gobbler by himself.

4. Outlaw decoys
I don't hunt with them, but once again, this is a quality of hunt issue, not a brood issue. I didn't see a disproportionate gobbler to hen ratio, so it's hard for me to say that gobblers are being overharvested relative to the hens in the flock.

5. Outlaw Jake shooting
Once again, I see this is a quality of hunt issue. Also, % jakes in the harvest can be an important indicator to biologists that recruitment is less than desirable, so % jake harvest is a good canary in the coal mine.

6. Remove season/bag limit restrictions on nest predators
This is one I came up with on my own- I figure being able to legally trap and hunt raccoons and opossums during the nesting and brooding period wouldn't hurt turkey recruitment, but someone has to be willing to do it. Nest predators don't just get eggs- raccoons love to eat turkey just as much as we do, and are a pretty significant summer predator on hens and poults. And they are super abundant now too.

7. Provide the means to improve the habitat for turkey nesting and brooding
This one is really easy to overlook since it's going on largely after we've left the woods, but it is incredibly important to sustaining and growing a turkey flock. Big open woods are fun to hunt, but hard to hide a nest or brood in. Burning, proper use of herbicides, and forest management are your tools here. If you've got some odd spots that will grow a decent clover patch, that's great too, but you need to give your flock good habitat across your property from ridgetop to holler, and clover patches are very expensive to maintain at the scale needed to impact the turkey flock.

8. Restrict the spreading of chicken litter as fertilizer
It's got to go somewhere- anyone else got any good ideas? Also, this would fall outside of TWRA's juridiction, and would likely be a TN Dept of Ag or TN Dept of Environment and Conservation issue. This would probably require a change in state law- Ag is a powerful lobby, and it doesn't give a rip when wildlife starts costing farmers money.

9. Relocate birds to areas with lower populations
I think this is a little irresponsible at this time. We don't know for sure what is causing turkey flocks to decline locally, so why would you want to expose perfectly healthy birds in a stable population to disease/predators/ poor habitat etc that have caused the resident flock to crash or relocate?

Basically, the way i see it, the onus is on us, the hunters and land managers to improve our habitat, be responsible with our harvest, and, if need be, control our predator populations until the flock recovers.
 
I agree with catman's earlier posts. Predator hunting and trapping can't hurt either and they're a load of fun.
 
Mick typed a lot of real good stuff...I agree with you sir.

In my mind a lot of this comes down to what we as hunters and land and habitat managers choose to do. I would argue that what's happening with all this dialogue is simply much needed education for land and habitat managers. Ain't knockin' nobody that might not have had all this Intel because there's so much to know and apply in practice...noone can reasonably be expected to get everything right the first time (or 2nd for that matter).

My guess is that noone told any of us half the stuff we somehow managed to learn from trial and error and error and error...from hunting turkeys to driving a car and everything in between. The State is learning too right alongside biologists and legislators and those of us toting the guns. The simple fact that we're even talking about what it takes to have a sustainable or growing population of birds is progress.

To be right honest, I'm encouraged by the fact that we're simply talking about. That's a start.
 
Carlos Viagra":1wyspjh9 said:
What's the spreading of chicken litter got to do with it?
There's been some discussion that spreading chicken litter is transmitting diseases from domestic poultry to wild birds that have never been exposed to them. It's a tough case to prove or disprove either way.
 
MickThompson":28ra6ybj said:
It seems that many on here agree that nesting/brooding is the issue- and I don't disagree. The harvest flattened off about the same time that our poults in the brood surveys bottomed out around 2 poults/hen. The question is then... What can be done? What should the state do?

1. Shorten the season
Shortening the season may well result in more hens being bred. But these days must come off the front end of the season- there isn't really a biological justification to take days from the end of the season. We would still see the same "rush" of harvest during the first 2 weeks of the season, but harvest would be delayed until mid April and hopefully the hens would all have been bred by then. How does this effect nesting success?

2. Reduce the bag limit
Reducing the bag limit may well reduce the number of birds an individual kills, but how many of them would turn around and take another hunter who is less skilled or experienced? This may well recruit new blood into the sport, but we may or may not reduce the # of birds taken (see TN vs KY thread). Turkeys range shift constantly, so unless you are on a very large tract, the birds you saved may not return to the property. I see this as a quality of hunt issue- i like hearing lots of gobbling birds and having a tough time deciding which one to chase too, and I have a spot that I quit hunting this year because it dried up and only held one bird who consistently pitched across property lines. I also have a rule that I won't take more than 1 bird off any farm I hunt a year, regardless of how many I am hearing.

3. Reduce/eliminate the fall season/hen killing
I can get behind this, and I think it might help some, but I don't think this will fix all the woes. I don't fall hunt either though, so I will readily give up this opportunity. I really think our turkeys are in a down cycle and will come back. I also didnt see a ton of "extra" hens. I think the most I ran into during the season was 4 with a single gobbler, and usually just 1 or a gobbler by himself.

4. Outlaw decoys
I don't hunt with them, but once again, this is a quality of hunt issue, not a brood issue. I didn't see a disproportionate gobbler to hen ratio, so it's hard for me to say that gobblers are being overharvested relative to the hens in the flock.

5. Outlaw Jake shooting
Once again, I see this is a quality of hunt issue. Also, % jakes in the harvest can be an important indicator to biologists that recruitment is less than desirable, so % jake harvest is a good canary in the coal mine.

6. Remove season/bag limit restrictions on nest predators
This is one I came up with on my own- I figure being able to legally trap and hunt raccoons and opossums during the nesting and brooding period wouldn't hurt turkey recruitment, but someone has to be willing to do it. Nest predators don't just get eggs- raccoons love to eat turkey just as much as we do, and are a pretty significant summer predator on hens and poults. And they are super abundant now too.

7. Provide the means to improve the habitat for turkey nesting and brooding
This one is really easy to overlook since it's going on largely after we've left the woods, but it is incredibly important to sustaining and growing a turkey flock. Big open woods are fun to hunt, but hard to hide a nest or brood in. Burning, proper use of herbicides, and forest management are your tools here. If you've got some odd spots that will grow a decent clover patch, that's great too, but you need to give your flock good habitat across your property from ridgetop to holler, and clover patches are very expensive to maintain at the scale needed to impact the turkey flock.

8. Restrict the spreading of chicken litter as fertilizer
It's got to go somewhere- anyone else got any good ideas? Also, this would fall outside of TWRA's juridiction, and would likely be a TN Dept of Ag or TN Dept of Environment and Conservation issue. This would probably require a change in state law- Ag is a powerful lobby, and it doesn't give a rip when wildlife starts costing farmers money.

9. Relocate birds to areas with lower populations
I think this is a little irresponsible at this time. We don't know for sure what is causing turkey flocks to decline locally, so why would you want to expose perfectly healthy birds in a stable population to disease/predators/ poor habitat etc that have caused the resident flock to crash or relocate?

Basically, the way i see it, the onus is on us, the hunters and land managers to improve our habitat, be responsible with our harvest, and, if need be, control our predator populations until the flock recovers.

Nice post
 
MickThompson":18aqhmga said:
2. Reduce the bag limit
Reducing the bag limit may well reduce the number of birds an individual kills, but how many of them would turn around and take another hunter who is less skilled or experienced? This may well recruit new blood into the sport, but we may or may not reduce the # of birds taken (see TN vs KY thread).

THAT is exactly what I would do, and an excellent point. I would be out there every day the season is open, even if I had to place an ad in the paper offering to take someone :D !
 
PalsPal":ibs2se0a said:
MickThompson":ibs2se0a said:
2. Reduce the bag limit
Reducing the bag limit may well reduce the number of birds an individual kills, but how many of them would turn around and take another hunter who is less skilled or experienced? This may well recruit new blood into the sport, but we may or may not reduce the # of birds taken (see TN vs KY thread).

THAT is exactly what I would do, and an excellent point. I would be out there every day the season is open, even if I had to place an ad in the paper offering to take someone :D !

Whether we're talking deer buck limits or Tom turkeys, when a 3 or 4 deer/turkey limit is reduced to 2, the benefits are balanced between a larger number of hunters actually killing 1 or 2, and, a larger number of deer/turkey surviving the season. Because a larger number of bucks/turkeys do survive each year, the improvements (hunter success rate) become progressively better each year. Again, note KY's hunter success rate compared to TN. It's not all about the soil.
 
Fall season didn't hurt my flock. I don't know anyone that had ever fall hunted around me. Goes for the entire county I'm in. Everyone is deer hunting.

My property and another 1200 acre property I've hunted used to have dozens, some years near 100 turkeys on each. Both had 12+ long beards every year. Neither has ever had a fall bird killed but both are almost void of turkeys Now. Fall hunting didn't do that here. Neither did a 4 bird limit.
 
PalsPal":3bfbwsj2 said:
MickThompson":3bfbwsj2 said:
2. Reduce the bag limit
Reducing the bag limit may well reduce the number of birds an individual kills, but how many of them would turn around and take another hunter who is less skilled or experienced? This may well recruit new blood into the sport, but we may or may not reduce the # of birds taken (see TN vs KY thread).

THAT is exactly what I would do, and an excellent point. I would be out there every day the season is open, even if I had to place an ad in the paper offering to take someone :D !

Then you should not complain or wonder why you don't have any gobblers...... :tu:
 
PalsPal":2zmlyjfe said:
MickThompson":2zmlyjfe said:
2. Reduce the bag limit
Reducing the bag limit may well reduce the number of birds an individual kills, but how many of them would turn around and take another hunter who is less skilled or experienced? This may well recruit new blood into the sport, but we may or may not reduce the # of birds taken (see TN vs KY thread).

THAT is exactly what I would do, and an excellent point. I would be out there every day the season is open, even if I had to place an ad in the paper offering to take someone :D !
yeah I didn't stop when I tagged out this year and I usually don't


Sent from the talk of tap
 
Roost 1":25rlcdgg said:
Then you should not complain or wonder why you don't have any gobblers...... :tu:

Look real hard, you find one such post of mine ;) :D !

I have access to several places to hunt, both public and private, so I can usually find birds to play with.

In my "all talk" post (which most are reading but not replying, I wonder why :D ?) , I stated a reduced limit wouldn't bother me, but it's not because I don't have birds to hunt. I genuinely feel for the guys who are limited on places to hunt and they don't have birds to play with.
 
CM i am with you. I don;t think Spring limits are the problem. I do believe we can limt our fall season or do away with it for a couple of years. No skin off my back, Ill shoot deer.... :)

I think many other factors are effecting our populations. I think you a few in your post. I think the TWRA should allow year round killing of coons along with the other varmints that raid nests.

Also would not be disappointed if they outlawed hen shooting.

Maybe 1 in fall with a bow during bow deer season.
 
Honestly I think 3, even 2 toms is enough as far as the spring harvest goes, I have no problem with the fall season but maybe do a set number of hens for the state, like 1 or 2.
 
MickThompson":1otm2uvg said:
9. Relocate birds to areas with lower populations
I think this is a little irresponsible at this time. We don't know for sure what is causing turkey flocks to decline locally, so why would you want to expose perfectly healthy birds in a stable population to disease/predators/ poor habitat etc that have caused the resident flock to crash or relocate?

I wonder if there were any complaints when they were trapping west TN turkeys out of Shelby Forest to stock other parts of the state. Now the tables have turned and we need some help and it is a bad idea?
 
Spurhunter":3sy4gt1i said:
MickThompson":3sy4gt1i said:
9. Relocate birds to areas with lower populations
I think this is a little irresponsible at this time. We don't know for sure what is causing turkey flocks to decline locally, so why would you want to expose perfectly healthy birds in a stable population to disease/predators/ poor habitat etc that have caused the resident flock to crash or relocate?

I wonder if there were any complaints when they were trapping west TN turkeys out of Shelby Forest to stock other parts of the state. Now the tables have turned and we need some help and it is a bad idea?

If your to the point you need to have restocking, you need to find out what caused you to need restocking and correct it first.
 
8 POINTS OR BETTER":2puziuyh said:
Spurhunter":2puziuyh said:
MickThompson":2puziuyh said:
9. Relocate birds to areas with lower populations
I think this is a little irresponsible at this time. We don't know for sure what is causing turkey flocks to decline locally, so why would you want to expose perfectly healthy birds in a stable population to disease/predators/ poor habitat etc that have caused the resident flock to crash or relocate?

I wonder if there were any complaints when they were trapping west TN turkeys out of Shelby Forest to stock other parts of the state. Now the tables have turned and we need some help and it is a bad idea?

If your to the point you need to have restocking, you need to find out what caused you to need restocking and correct it first.
I know what caused it. High water, bad hatches, and liberal limits in poor counties. None of which I can correct. My point is when they were trapping here and stocking other places it was a great idea. Now that the tables have turned, not so much.
 

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