today's TFWC Meeting

[megalomaniac]

This. Amen. Simple fix. But 2 bird limit don't sell out of state license. It's all about money. Those lifetime license sold to babies way back has them strapped for cash.

I listened to a bit regarding their license sales last year... brief synopsis... 165,000 lifetime license sales, 800,000 other license sales. HUGE increase from prior years. And thanks to the 'auto-renew' feature they added to annual sales, they are WAY ahead so far this year. The more licenses you sell, the more matching federal Pittman-Robertson dollars you get.

In other words, TWRA has more revenue now than they have ever had. It works out to 1/6 people in TN has purchased a hunting, fishing, or boating license, they think one of the highest percentages in the nation. I did not hear percentages of NR license sales, but again, didn't listen to the entire presentation.

 

[Andy S.]

This is a sobering chart. Thanks for posting. I've never seen these numbers.

Yes it is. Anyone who cares about the future of the wild turkey in TN, and subsequent turkey hunting, needs to read it, and read it again and realize we are not producing the turkeys (poults and older aged) we did 20 years ago. With that said, we can kill them easier today than ever, due to all the decoys, gadgets and super duper sniper shotguns. The turkeys have an all out assault on them and TWRA and TFWC needs to make protecting our valuable resource the #1 mission, bar none.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

This is a sobering chart. Thanks for posting. I've never seen these numbers.

I get the feeling that most of the commissioners have never seen them either because they never discuss them. But we have reliable, empirical poult survey data going back to the early 80s. It is summarized in the Summer Survey from last year (LINK). There will always be little ebbs and flows from year to year, but it's startling on a graph and it's startling to look at the 5 year averages.

Every time the turkey management subject comes up, they want to focus on the harvest numbers consistently exceeding 30,000, but they never address the important side of the equation. I love killing turkeys, so I'm all for consistent harvest numbers. But consistently killing 30,000 is only a good thing if we produce enough turkeys to support that harvest. For the last several years, we are not producing enough turkeys to support the harvest numbers.

If someone makes $100,000 per year, and spends $80,000, great. Relatively comfortable life a saving a little every year. If by some unfortunate circumstance, that person starts making $65,000, but keeps spending $80,000, they're going to have problems soon. It could be addressed early on. Just make a few sacrifices here and there and live within your means. But if you ignore it, you'll dig a hole you can't climb out of.

Tennessee's turkey management is this scenario. But no one making decisions will acknowledge that we're making less than we use to. So we keep spending the same and ignoring the problem. And if someone points out that there sure seems to be fewer turkeys around than there were a few years ago, they just point to all the turkeys we kill every year as justification for killing that many turkeys. It's infuriating.

 

[Bgoodman30]

I get the feeling that most of the commissioners have never seen them either because they never discuss them. But we have reliable, empirical poult survey data going back to the early 80s. It is summarized in the Summer Survey from last year (LINK). There will always be little ebbs and flows from year to year, but it's startling on a graph and it's startling to look at the 5 year averages.

Every time the turkey management subject comes up, they want to focus on the harvest numbers consistently exceeding 30,000, but they never address the important side of the equation. I love killing turkeys, so I'm all for consistent harvest numbers. But consistently killing 30,000 is only a good thing if we produce enough turkeys to support that harvest. For the last several years, we are not producing enough turkeys to support the harvest numbers.

If someone makes $100,000 per year, and spends $80,000, great. Relatively comfortable life a saving a little every year. If by some unfortunate circumstance, that person starts making $65,000, but keeps spending $80,000, they're going to have problems soon. It could be addressed early on. Just make a few sacrifices here and there and live within your means. But if you ignore it, you'll dig a hole you can't climb out of.

Tennessee's turkey management is this scenario. But no one making decisions will acknowledge that we're making less than we use to. So we keep spending the same and ignoring the problem. And if someone points out that there sure seems to be fewer turkeys around than there were a few years ago, they just point to all the turkeys we kill every year as justification for killing that many turkeys. It's infuriating.

The PPH number prove your hypothesis but the harvest numbers say otherwise IMO. I find it hard to believe that we had record harvest numbers without more turkeys available to harvest. My personal observations in middle TN from 2019 that there were more jakes than I had seen in a long time. Subsequently there were more gobblers in 2020 that I had observed in a many years. I think we had a good hatch somewhere along the line which resulted in a great season. It obviously differs by region but I also observed this trend in the MAV zone that has had their season limited. I just don't buy the notion that many more turkeys died because of COVID..

Taking away our liberal limit framework is a slippery slope that that will probably do little to improve hunting opportunity in this state. Until we can determine the root cause of low PPH and get those numbers ticking upward there is little we can do to mitigate..

 

[muddyboots]

I listened to a bit regarding their license sales last year... brief synopsis... 165,000 lifetime license sales, 800,000 other license sales. HUGE increase from prior years. And thanks to the 'auto-renew' feature they added to annual sales, they are WAY ahead so far this year. The more licenses you sell, the more matching federal Pittman-Robertson dollars you get.

In other words, TWRA has more revenue now than they have ever had. It works out to 1/6 people in TN has purchased a hunting, fishing, or boating license, they think one of the highest percentages in the nation. I did not hear percentages of NR license sales, but again, didn't listen to the entire presentation.

That's what I'm saying. High limits keeps license sales high. I think that why they want go back to 2. They are afraid license sales go down. Jmo. Jmo.

 

[Andy S.]

I just don't buy the notion that many more turkeys died because of COVID..

I respectfully disagree. Between me and my circle of friends that turkey hunt, and all the turkey hunters I keep tabs on via hunting forums, most of us had considerable more time and mornings to hunt last year compared to pre-COVID. For my inner circle, we mostly have office jobs and with the maxi-flex work schedules where we could work 40 hours whenever we wanted, we took advantage of the mornings (first 2-3 hours) and the pretty weather days to hunt A LOT more last year than the previous years. We also found more hunters to drag along with us in the field so we could still enjoy the outdoors and continue hunting all season long. I hunted out of state in an area I'm very familiar with and I have never seen the number of out of state tags (differing States), nor the shear volume of hunters as I did last year. It was a very noticeable difference on some pretty rugged public land where most guys do not dream of hunting. Numerous states across the southeast saw similar increases in hunting pressure right after the pandemic hit and unemployment spiked. Dr. Chambelain (UGA), who I follow closely and is very in-tune with the eastern wild turkey, issued a white paper on the potential effects down the road due to the 2020 pandemic fueled onslaught of wild turkeys. As you eluded to, the resource had to be there, likely from an above average 2018 hatch in some areas, but I suspect most of those 2 y/o birds were mowed down last spring. The Audubom article below talks about the 2020 surge in hunters afield across the southeast and it also has a link to Chamberlain's white paper.

Pandemic-fueled Surge in Wild Turkey Hunting Tests Declining Populations

Turkey hunters with extra time on their hands are behind a harvest spike that could have lasting impacts, biologists warn.

www.audubon.org

 

[Andy S.]

.... but the harvest numbers say otherwise IMO. I find it hard to believe that we had record harvest numbers without more turkeys available to harvest.

Managing turkeys by harvest numbers is a very slippery slope IMO, and throwing caution to the wind. Arkansas is the prime example of what not to do. In the late 90s and early 2000s, they were on fire (for AR), just like TN and most States in the South were. Turkeys gobbling everywhere, seen everywhere, the hunters were happy and no one thought we could kill enough to ever hurt the resource. Then, they had consecutive years of bad hatches, while keeping the liberal limits in place and it eventually caught up with them. It got to the point a decade later where they had to make drastic season changes, reducing the season length, the bag limit, eliminating jake harvest, etc. The hunting experience was dire enough that it resulted in a lot of AR residents traveling to neighboring states to find an enjoyable spring turkey hunt. We should learn from their mistakes and not walk off the same cliff. Here is their historical statewide harvest data for discussion sake. Blue line total harvest, orange line adult gobbler harvest. Easy to see when jakes were made illegal around 2010. Notice how fat and happy everyone was around 2000, then how miserable and sad the same bunch was just 10 years later. Today, AR has some of the most conservation spring seasons around, because they had to start managing the resource, for the future of the resource, and letting profit and hunter satisfaction fall where they may.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Taking away our liberal limit framework is a slippery slope that that will probably do little to improve hunting opportunity in this state. Until we can determine the root cause of low PPH and get those numbers ticking upward there is little we can do to mitigate..

1) We are, as a matter of verifiable, factual data, producing fewer poults than we have since turkeys were reintroduced. So it seems mathematically impossible for us to have more turkeys in the population than we did when we were producing more baby turkeys.

2) How is it a "slippery slope" to reduce liberal limits and long seasons for an animal with a declining population?

3) Since we can't prove the smoking gun cause of the population decline, you think we should just keep hammering away at them? Ignoring the recommendations of the world's leading wild turkey biologists and the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies?

That's exactly the logic used by the commission of late, so you're not alone.

We're still killing a bunch of turkeys every year, so it must be fine to keep killing a bunch of turkeys every year.

— But poult production numbers are way down and people all over the state are complaining about declines in bird numbers?

Nah, everything's fine. We know there's plenty because we just killed a yugo-ton of 'em.

 

[deerfever]

What gets me is when we have this discussion harvest numbers being steady never mean anything unless it was 2018 when they fell below 30,000. Then some of the same people that said you can't go by harvest numbers are the same ones that pointed harvest numbers out on this forum as the sky is falling in Tn turkey hunting. Go back and look as many of you predicted the 2019 harvest would be 20,000 or below? When we killed over 31,000 in 2019 then there were actually people on this forum that claimed a conspiracy theory and that TWRA had doctored the numbers for some reason. The only thing wrong in 2018 was the weekend weather at the beginning of the season it rained, snowed, wind and everything in between the first few weekends. I have pointed out fact that Ky was down 18 percent that year also. They open later and have the two bird limit that all refer to as the problem solver. Last year we set a record that I have no doubt was impacted by Covid. The later open date has never been proven to do any good in the states that have it with poult production. Andy put out a chart of Missouri look at the data of poults , it's not good . They have a later opening date , stop hunting of the evening, one gobbler the first week. Again if it works why has their poult production not went up? LBL is another example of the later opener not helping at all. Most believe the Dr. Chamberlain observation as fact but at this point it's theory as I understand it. You need to have patience with different studies going on in several states that may prove his theory correct or possibly wrong. You need to realize that some parts of our state as one commissioner mentioned are actually on the rise with turkey population. I have seen , heard and killed turkey in places I never imagined and seen more jakes last year than I care to think about. I had a lease in one county that does not kill big numbers and some on here claim a turkey doesn't exist. I had my doubts even making the 1.5 hour drive the first morning I went only to hear what sounded like the whole mountain side gobbling between my place and surrounding areas. So I guess my point is , you want commission pass laws based off an unproven theory? Because you and your buddy don't hear as many? But don't look at 20 years of steady harvest data as anything to go by? Again we berate the commission over everything they do but what other state has had 20 years of steady harvest data? . I had a conversation with one of the commissioners about two weeks ago ,It may not do a bit of good but it made me feel better. He was nice and I expressed my opinions . Again I believe the 3 bird limit will be fine . Ban Gobbler decoys( could care less about hens decoys, they do more harm than good) ,ban fans, kill 0 hens ,no jakes and more liberal trapping of nest predators . These are things that can guarantee more turkey will survive to the next year not a theory but a fact. Some will say, But people will hunt with gobbler decoys anyway if a law is passed. I guarantee that most everyone would comply and especially on public land where they know all it takes now days is a cell phone and an agent can be notified of a gobbler decoy toting bandit in a moments notice. The logic of no one will follow the rules would be like me saying if they set the season back two weeks people will hunt them on the normal opening date anyway so what is the point of doing it. There will always be lawbreakers no matter what you do but does not mean laws that we know would help our turkey population should not be passed. Tn has a section that is opening two weeks later and a two bird limit , why not study this and see if it this helps before changing the whole state ? Heck give us some counties or WMAs with no decoys or fans and no jake killing and let's see if that helps after a couple years. Let's see what works best and then do it for all of us ! Again I respect each of the opinions and realize how passionate most of us on here are about TN and turkey hunting . We all just need to realize that opinions on how to accomplish what is best for all of us will vary because different sections of the state are seeing various levels of turkey population decline or increase. If some of the things being studied are proven true then I will jump on board as an avid turkey hunter for 38 years! If they are not then why not move in the direction that I am suggesting? In the end we all want what is best for the future of turkey hunting!

 

[Southern Sportsman]

What gets me is when we have this discussion harvest numbers being steady never mean anything unless it was 2018 when they fell below 30,000.

I tried to explain my position on this. I hope we have consistent kill numbers forever. But it seems really shortsighted to point to harvest numbers as a sign of turkey management success while the production of new poults is simultaneously plummeting. Doesn't seem like a formula that will end wel

You need to realize that some parts of our state as one commissioner mentioned are actually on the rise with turkey population. I have seen , heard and killed turkey in places I never imagined and seen more jakes last year than I care to think about. I had a lease in one county that does not kill big numbers and some on here claim a turkey doesn't exist. I had my doubts even making the 1.5 hour drive the first morning I went only to hear what sounded like the whole mountain side gobbling between my place and surrounding areas.

No doubt, some areas a good. Some have had consecutive good hatches. Some can sustain the early start date and high limits. And I really am happy for everybody that hunts those places. But many, many areas aren't so lucky. I know of multiple farms that were unreal in the early-mid 2000s where you would count yourself lucky to find a few tracks today.

I think we need different management units for turkeys. But unless and until we get them, do you think we should manage turkeys for the areas that are doing great, or manage them to help the many, many places where they're struggling?

So I guess my point is , you want commission pass laws based off an unproven theory? Because you and your buddy don't hear as many? But don't look at 20 years of steady harvest data as anything to go by? Again we berate the commission over everything they do but what other state has had 20 years of steady harvest data?

Nope. I want them to manage turkeys based on the advice of the most qualified experts and based on available pertinent data. We have 30 years worth of harvest data. We also have 40 years worth of poult recruitment data. It looks like this:

We can keep killing the same numbers of turkeys for a while. But if we keep doing it while simultaneously producing fewer turkeys each year (which we are), we will kill the flock down to a point that's hard to recover from without new restocking efforts.

I want the commission to make changes based on the fact that our current poult production numbers are not sustainable. I think the changes should be based on the best scientific theory we have available. I'm not a biologist. Maybe Chamberlain and others are wrong. Maybe there's nothing we can do to help reproduction numbers. But their theory is very well supported and has a lot of common-sense logic. Maybe it doesn't work, but I'd much rather we do too much than too little.


I had a conversation with one of the commissioners about two weeks ago ,It may not do a bit of good but it made me feel better. He was nice and I expressed my opinions . Again I believe the 3 bird limit will be fine . Ban Gobbler decoys( could care less about hens decoys, they do more harm than good) ,ban fans, kill 0 hens ,no jakes and more liberal trapping of nest predators . These are things that can guarantee more turkey will survive to the next year not a theory but a fact.

Here, we have common ground. IMO, if we outlawed male turkey decoys, the kill totals would drop by 40-50% — especially the early season totals. Breeding cycles would be far less affected and I'd be all for keeping the early start dates and wouldn't care if they went to a 5 bird limit. This, above all else, is what I wish would happen. I think it's the best possible solution for a number of reasons. But I also think it's the least likely. Serial turkey reapists and tent hunters would storm the capital and lobbyist would get involved.

 

[scn]

Am i wrong or can you night time predetor hunt on your own land?

Wrong. There is no night time predator season.

 

[timberjack86]

Management units would be a huge step in the right direction!

 

[scn]

Management units would be a huge step in the right direction!

The problem with management units is that they are WAY too easy to manipulate with electronic check in. I could sit here in middle TN under current check in regulations and check out a bird from anywhere in the state. And, there is data to back that up with the way the county antlerless deer seasons used to go. And, that was when there was mandatory physical check ins.

 

[deerfever]

Southern, You and I have this same Conversation every year and I do respect you as I can tell you are truly concerned and a good hunter but if Chamberlain is correct than why the poor poult numbers in Missouri and LBL that do open later? That is where we see differently. Also we agree on the Gobbler decoys so why not do something that we know for a fact will work?If a wma can have a 4 point on one side why can't a WMA say no gobbler decoys or fans? There as just as many of us if not more that don't like the use of them . Also Jakes , if my son can sit and watch a wad of 9 gobbling jakes come by him and not even consider it without me telling him different than why couldn't we all do that? That is not meant to demean anyone but again it's a step for more Gobblers to breed hens in the future. Alabama had a no decoy rule in effect for years with no issues . Again we all agree that this would help so that is why I believe we should push in that direction more than the direction of theory. Again if they prove the theory correct then I would be all for moving juvenile to the first Saturday in April and the season the Saturday after and it wouldn't bother if they did that anyway. Regardless if they move season 3 weeks back I will have to accept it just like if they ban decoys that group should have to accept it and realize that it's what is best for the future of turkey hunting. My son has a juvenile hunt next Saturday here in TN ! You talk about early! I have no clue why it's March 13 and 14 . I hope it doesn't snow and the flocks are busted up, either way I am going to enjoy the hunt with him!

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Southern, You and I have this same Conversation every year and I do respect you as I can tell you are truly concerned and a good hunter but if Chamberlain is correct than why the poor poult numbers in Missouri and LBL that do open later? That is where we see differently. Also we agree on the Gobbler decoys so why not do something that we know for a fact will work?If a wma can have a 4 point on one side why can't a WMA say no gobbler decoys or fans? There as just as many of us if not more that don't like the use of them. Also Jakes , if my son can sit and watch a wad of 9 gobbling jakes come by him and not even consider it without me telling him different than why couldn't we all do that?

I'm all for it. We can run it like a campaign. I'll make the first donation towards yard signs and bumper stickers and I'll call a commissioner a day for the month leading up to the next season setting meeting. But opposition will be fierce and candidly, I don't think the commission has the collective backbone to pass that rule. I would guess, perhaps unfairly, that most of the commissioners who turkey hunt at all do it largely over a strutter decoy because that's the easiest way to kill one. People have become really accustom to using any kind of decoy they want. And when you start talking about taking things away — be it early start dates, liberal limits, or decoys — people take it very personal. What percentage of turkey hunters in TN do you think use decoys? If Alabama couldn't keep them banned with their long history of old school turkey hunting, I don't like our chances in TN.

You would also have the same issue with decoy restrictions that you are throwing at me over season dates. "This is just an unproven theory. There is no scientific data proving that decoys cause an increase in harvest numbers or that the harvest numbers impact poult recruitment."

 

[deerfever]

If I am reading correctly Alabama just proposed no decoys or fans the first 10 days of the season beginning 2022. The season will start March 25 and go 45 days and the limit went from 5 to 4. There you go! That is the best of both worlds . Now I am getting this from their turkey hunting website that is similar to TNDEER so don't hold me to it the meeting was today so it should be published soon. The first part with the decoys could be a compromise that might get by the commission here in TN. Put the decoys away early so not as many dominant birds get killed before breeding is complete then let the decoy people have at it. Alabama has went from opening March 15 to March 25 if this is passed Now with that being said the original date went from March 15 to the 3rd Saturday in March for instance this year is March 20 and had nothing to do with Turkey biology but a new regime didn't believe it was fair to open the season through the week because so many people had to work. This proposed move to the 25th does have to do I believe with the study they have done on various WMA in the state. I hunt 3 of them that have been in the study and 2 that were not . Basically now the season would start when the WMA study seasons have been starting. So they will open when our juvenile hunt takes place and TN opens the next weekend. It puts us a week behind Alabama if passed which seems about right to me but again if studies prove me wrong I am game to move. Now to answer your question , you are correct that my no decoy , no jake agenda is just a theory as far as poult production but I think it's a fact that less turkey would be killed and more would survive to breed. I believe it is a pretty high percentage that use decoys because I think they have been pushed hard since the 90s and it's all some know. I may be wrong but I bet 50 percent atleast use them( probably more) especially your new turkey hunters. In the end I think habitat and nest predators have gotten worse for turkey also in different areas and caused some big time issues. Again my more liberal trapping seasons. I don't have all or probably any of the answers . I can't explain why I have seen the population rise in places and others have seen there area waste away . In the end I do hope they come up with the best solution for all of us !

 

[trkhunter]

wish we had any turkeys in south wayne co!!

 

[Southern Sportsman]

I would prefer simply banning male decoys (or at least "strutter" decoys). But I would definitely support a compromise. Maybe the first 2 weeks. That would also allow us to evaluate how much decoys are impacting harvest by simply comparing harvest data for the same timespan in earlier years and before/after in the same year.

Now to answer your question , you are correct that my no decoy , no jake agenda is just a theory as far as poult production but I think it's a fact that less turkey would be killed and more would survive to breed.

Absolutely, without question, it would. And as noted, that's how I would prefer to address it. But if our commission won't address it by regulating decoys, they have to address it somehow.

Absent a decoy ban (total or partial), the same can be said for moving season dates. Is the season timing thing a "theory?" Yes. It's the leading theory, but it's still a theory. But would it save a bunch of turkeys until more hens have been bred? Obviously, yes.

I believe it is a pretty high percentage that use decoys because I think they have been pushed hard since the 90s and it's all some know. I may be wrong but I bet 50 percent atleast use them( probably more) especially your new turkey hunters.

I would be shocked if it's a person less than 90% using decoys. Which is both why it is probably impacting populations, and why it will be hard for the commission to regulate them.

 

[1jamey]

2 bird limit and night time predator hunting, easy fix

Hunted 4 days now. 2 coyotes down, could have petted a bobcat, my brother did connect on opening morning but I need to seriously get into predator hunting.

 

[Bone Collector]

Who gives a rip how many males survive the season as long as they are removed after the hens are bred and jakes are left to do the breeding the following year. Basic turkey population dynamics... it's all about driving poult production.

I agree, but I have already seen some breeding this year in Mid TN. I know you know more about than me, so maybe it is a practice run, but I hope it is a live fire exercise and some are already bred. Now if we can get them to nest and not have it raided, and/or flooded.