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Turkey season changes....

Gobble4me757 said:
Show actual proof and not theoretical data. Absolutely nothing in all the data has shown any evidence supporting lowering limits and pushing back season dates to improve population sizes. Have you trapped? If you have as just an observation, I'll bet you have observed an increase in your local population like I have in different areas back in Bama. I work in the medical field…if I use theoretical data to practice medicine, my tail would be sued back to medical school. Sure, a lot more data points to come with further studies but the results are pretty damming to Chamberlain's theories…even Chamberlain acknowledges predator control as a key but doesn't focus on it likely because it's not in alignment with "the dominant gobbler theory"
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Do you have the latest research besides the article linked in the other thread?
Worth noting, the article is asking for money…which in any other circumstance I'd label as sketchy.

That aside, in this particular area of wildlife science we actually have the opportunity to prove a thesis. Declare predator war on a TWRA managed WMA and prove the theory. It's that simple, $100 they will not do that. It will be filed away and used as a bullet point for years to come.
 
scn said:
You obviously care more about the killing than the population getting better.
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This is laughable. Completely the opposite. I also care about data and not bending over to stuff that hasn't shown to work anywhere. Look at arkansas…they've had a delayed season and decreased limits for years and the population hasn't improved at all. They knew this before the changes were implemented so why make the changes? Actually, the more you decrease the limits, the less honest folks are willing to put into improving their property for turkeys cause at what point is it worth it? Like I said, before making false accusations about me…back up your beliefs with proof
 
AT Hiker said:
Do you have the latest research besides the article linked in the other thread?
Worth noting, the article is asking for money…which in any other circumstance I'd label as sketchy.

That aside, in this particular area of wildlife science we actually have the opportunity to prove a thesis. Declare predator war on a TWRA managed WMA and prove the theory. It's that simple, $100 they will not do that. It will be filed away and used as a bullet point for years to come.
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Here's one study finding a significance in the more coins trapped/killed, the more nest survival. That article was on turkeys for tomorrow's website and not their actual research paper that will be coming out. They have a few other studies being done across Bama and other southern states going on right now. I agree it's tough to incentivize people to trap coons/hunt them as the study above states but if people are turkey hunters they should do it solely for the benefit/conservation of their species.

There is also an older study showing a significance in nest predator increase with decrease in nest survival…and Vice versa. Which is once again, common sense. What do I know though since I only care about killing them..
 
Gobble4me757 said:

Here's one study finding a significance in the more coins trapped/killed, the more nest survival. That article was on turkeys for tomorrow's website and not their actual research paper that will be coming out. They have a few other studies being done across Bama and other southern states going on right now. I agree it's tough to incentivize people to trap coons/hunt them as the study above states but if people are turkey hunters they should do it solely for the benefit/conservation of their species.

There is also an older study showing a significance in nest predator increase with decrease in nest survival…and Vice versa. Which is once again, common sense. What do I know though since I only care about killing them..
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I appreciate this, and I'll take time to read it, but it's dated 1995.

I'm very anxious to read the latest research from Dr Harper. It's likely going to include 20 nest over 5 counties which is not going to go over well with us "laymen". It is also very likely research elsewhere will contradict it, which is the clutch of the issue, imo.

I have zero doubt that any turkey hunter worth his weight would argue nest predators are our competitors. I also have zero doubt that any seasoned turkey hunter would question how big a role nest predators play in the overall decline, that basically happened overnight in the grand scheme of things.

Nothing I'd love more than declaring war on predators at LBL or Ft Campbell or any other known turkey factory. Then see a population explosion, it would cost nothing or very little in the grand scheme, but the impact would be immeasurable. I can guarantee you they will never do it.
 
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Gobble4me757 said:
This is laughable. Completely the opposite. I also care about data and not bending over to stuff that hasn't shown to work anywhere. Look at arkansas…they've had a delayed season and decreased limits for years and the population hasn't improved at all. They knew this before the changes were implemented so why make the changes? Actually, the more you decrease the limits, the less honest folks are willing to put into improving their property for turkeys cause at what point is it worth it? Like I said, before making false accusations about me…back up your beliefs with proof
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Back up your beliefs with proof. Preliminary results from a five county area are a stretch to make a case.

I'm willing to give the new regs an opportunity to make things better. You obviously are not. It is pretty easy to see who cares more about killing than the turkey flock improving.
 
For the areas I hunt, the single best thing TWRA has done to help our turkey populations is to delay the opening date by 2 weeks.

Yes, trapping predators would be even better.
But TWRA cannot make people trap them, and people have the opportunity to trap them already.

About all the only practical things TWRA can do is set season dates & bag limits.

Whether the season opens around the 1st of April or the middle of April, I'm expecting the first two weeks to be great hunting, perhaps even better if it starts mid-April instead of earlier.

I'm sure those who rely on decoys hate the delayed opening, as it's a real killer for easy decoying. But perhaps the best thing about the mid-April opener is how it will reduce the early slaughter by non-resident (and resident) hunters BEFORE most hens have even been bred.

If more turkey hunters would now start trapping, we could really help get our statewide turkey population flourishing again. I'll start running my trap lines just as soon as deer season ends.

But nest raiders may not be the biggest "issue" of declining turkey populations in many areas. There are some pretty large areas in TN where the raccoon population really isn't as high now as in times past.

In many areas, the bigger culprit has become raptors, such as Cooper's hawks and owls quickly killing an entire flock of baby turkeys. Next, the red-tails can slaughter the surviving young poults. And if that's not enough, now the bald eagles are increasing in population, and evolving to hunt more inland, specifically for adult turkeys. Most vulnerable are strutting Toms.
 
WOW, there are a lot of options and thoughts!! I too was saddened to see the delay in the season and the reduction of the limit but I WILLING to do anything that is legal to help out the turkey populations/hunting. Habitat management and trapping has been key to helping all the little critters. If you're a dedicated hunter of any type, deer turkey rabbit quail etc you should try your best to trap trap trap trap then trap some more. What else are you doing during January, February and March. It's not hard or difficult to do. Just enjoy it and all the other opportunities you have outside in nature.
 
TheLBLman said:
For the areas I hunt, the single best thing TWRA has done to help our turkey populations is to delay the opening date by 2 weeks.

Yes, trapping predators would be even better.
But TWRA cannot make people trap them, and people have the opportunity to trap them already.

About all the only practical things TWRA can do is set season dates & bag limits.

Whether the season opens around the 1st of April or the middle of April, I'm expecting the first two weeks to be great hunting, perhaps even better if it starts mid-April instead of earlier.

I'm sure those who rely on decoys hate the delayed opening, as it's a real killer for easy decoying. But perhaps the best thing about the mid-April opener is how it will reduce the early slaughter by non-resident (and resident) hunters BEFORE most hens have even been bred.

If more turkey hunters would now start trapping, we could really help get our statewide turkey population flourishing again. I'll start running my trap lines just as soon as deer season ends.

But nest raiders may not be the biggest "issue" of declining turkey populations in many areas. There are some pretty large areas in TN where the raccoon population really isn't as high now as in times past.

In many areas, the bigger culprit has become raptors, such as Cooper's hawks and owls quickly killing an entire flock of baby turkeys. Next, the red-tails can slaughter the surviving young poults. And if that's not enough, now the bald eagles are increasing in population, and evolving to hunt more inland, specifically for adult turkeys. Most vulnerable are strutting Toms.
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I can only trap till February 28th on public. I will trap until then.
 
I don't think anyone on this site who disagrees with the two week delay is about just the " killing", no one is going to do much killing anyway with a two bird limit . I think people on this site have difference of opinion as well as many turkey hunters across this state. The way I see it the study of 5 counties for 5 years is more proof that a delay does nothing for reproductive success than anyone has offered up to prove the validity of the two week delay and dominant gobbler theory helping reproductive success . Where is the proof that it helps anything? Arkansas? LBL(delayed opener for many years). It will stop non residents from flocking here but do not make residents wait for that reason, have a quota on public land for non residents or I am guessing TN could probably say the first week is private land only for non residents. Worried about decoys again follow Alabama's lead no decoys for first 10 days, I don't use them but to each his own. To me the study ,all the pictures of huge flocks of turkeys here on this site , the talk of great hatches this year ,and all the success our state has had for the past 22 years is all I need to convince me nothing was wrong with our opener. Remember don't give TWRA credit for the change the agency didn't recommend any changes(again correct me if wrong). Your changes come from commission who argue every year wether or not people know what a Jake is? Yep, I trust that group to make sound decisions. Lol, We are all the same side here. Get to trapping and realize it's ok to have a difference of opinion on the opener. I would much rather hunt the first two weeks of April than the last two of May since there has been no proven benefits of a delay for our turkeys, It's that simple for me.
 
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So... what the locations where season opening was delayed (Arkansas, LBL, TN, etc) only proved ONE thing... once turkey populations have declined beyond a certain point, NOTHING is going to allow them to recover while hunting is still occuring (and perhaps nothing will allow them to recover even if there is no hunting).

The writing is on the wall... turkeys are going to go the way of the quail and disappear in huntable populations. The question is how long till we are at that point? Many locations that were once turkey havens are already devoid of any birds.

The way I see it we have 2 options... keep doing the same thing and kill as many as we can before they disappear, or fight the decline with every tool available and hope they don't become extinct... which probably won't work either.... but it just might buy us a few more years of huntable populations before they are gone for good.

But as far as my support for delaying season opening...that's purely for selfish reasons. The hunting is just so much better mid to late April on my farms than late March... if there are any birds that made it to mid April.

And while simple common sense (season structure for turkeys should never be set to open before peak breeding... which is around April 15 thru 20 in middle TN) doesn't necessarily translate to standing population trends, it doesn't mean we should manage against common sense strategies.

After all, the delayed season change takes away no hunting days afield. Losing a bird going from 3 to 2 limit does take away something out of the freezer, but you can still kill the first, save the other tag, hunt for 41 more straight days, call up birds and pass them, and then tag your 2nd last weekend of season. That's what I would do back in the early 2000s with my self imposed limit of 2 birds on my farms, despite the statewide limit of 4. Still had a blast calling in birds even though I didn't kill them.
 
In the absence of a solid solution to the problems of predators I am all for every possible solution including less popular ones. I oversee a property where we trap aggressively and support excellent habitat and yes we see very good numbers there. I manage another where the owners do nothing trapping related but have an expanse of dense habitat and they still have incredible numbers. A nearby property that has everything in order management wise but has constant declining numbers. The only factor I see there that I do not elsewhere is the 8 to 10 guys that hunt it hunt early, hunt hard and kill everything that gobbles early then they are out stomping thru everything trying to scare up a bird or are hunting the property lines trying to pull a bird off the neighbors. This is a bigger factor than many of you do not want to accept.
Let me add that turkey mating is not a simple task. I raise heritage turkeys and maintain a breeder flock. Experienced birds can complete the act with relative ease but know that there is no penetration but anus to anus contact is required. Stop and look at all that lies in the way! Tail feathers the hen must move aside at the right time, many less controllable vent feathers as well as grass, weeds and more can interfere. Lessor experienced hens can and do make this more difficult. Jakes or inexperienced males truly struggle to get timing and aim together causing hens to become anxious or impatient. High strung males may dance on the hens back causing her to not be positioned right or to attempt to get away, this is where spurred males can injure a hen causing infections that prevent nesting or kill the hen. Subordinate males will even ejaculate on the hens back rather than complete the task if he is rushed or stressed. As in many species males do not reach sexual maturity as early as females and if a flock is left with late hatched males many hens could go without being bred. Finally if a hen does manage to nest and have fertile eggs under her, she will lock down on that nest the last 10 days. Her desire to complete incubation is so strong that she will sit tight when faced with certain death by predators and farm equipment when this happens we lose both hen and nest.
Finally never ever "look" for a nest!!! If you approach a nest a predator will most likely track your scent into that nest and it will be destroyed within a couple days!

In close, MATURE males are required for a successful nesting season!
HABITAT is required for a successful flock
Predator CONTROL is required for large productive flocks.

We have to make stew here folks not just soup.
 
Popcorn said:
Another point that needs consideration is that to insure maximum fertilization the magic number is 10. 10 hens to 1 male ratio, after that fertility drops.
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Really? Not at all disputing this just didn't know this was the case. Got any literature I can read up on regarding the matter?
 
Boll Weevil said:
Really? Not at all disputing this just didn't know this was the case. Got any literature I can read up on regarding the matter?
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These are long practiced ratios used throughout the poultry world (except waterfowl) Recommended for backyard breeders and natural producers / breeders of anyone not using artificial insemination. I see no reason to believe that healthy domestic flocks would differ from wild flocks on this. I have raised various poultry species since 1972 and have encountered this ratio recommendation in lit and books as well as online from 4-H, breeder guides, breeders for hatcheries and all natural / organic breeder / producers guides / orgs throughout my life. Honestly as a heritage turkey breeder I seldom exceed 4 to 1 and will experience infertile eggs when using young inexperienced males.
 

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