I know some of y'all reload and are pretty smart on this. I know nothing about different powders. I've always used 2 pellets of either pyrodex or 777 for probably 20 years of muzzleloading. On the barrel of my MZ it states not to use anything except blackpowder. A guy I know uses a "blackpowder only" muzzleloader also, but shoots IMR 4198 and gets excellent results...deadly accurate, no smoke, no clean-up. He's been trying to get me to for years but I'm afraid to because I've seen the warnings and I'm afraid it may blow up. He knows several people that do it and they all say 48 grains of IMR 4198 has less pressure than 150 grains of blackpowder. He just tells me not to go over 50 grains of 4198. Is it true that a small amount, say 48 grains of 4198, would have less pressure and would possibly be ok to shoot?
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Using Gun Powder in a Muzzleloader
- Thread starter SteveJ
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DONT DO IT!
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Smo
Well-Known Member
Please DON'T!
MickThompson
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a terrific way to lose a couple fingers and have reconstructive surgery if you're lucky enough to survive.
I know not to shoot it. I'm not a risk taker or I would've done it years ago. My question was about the pressure of a small amount of 4198 (which he says is a slower burning powder) vs a large amount of blackpowder and why manufacturers would say not to use it if the pressure is less. It looks like the guys with smokeless muzzleloaders are shooting more like 70 or 80 grains since they are built for it. This guy that uses it is kind of a backwoods hillbilly and I have a hard time believing it's not blowing his gun up. But he's not the type that would lie either.
Myth buster 1: 4198 is NOT a slow burning powder. It is a fast burning rifle powder, among the fastest.
Myth buster 2: 48 grains is NOT a small amount of this powder.
DO NOT DO IT!!! I would not trust a thing that this friend asks you to do. I would seriously question his IQ, honesty, or gullibility if he says these things to you. That is beyond playing with fire, and I would not even hunt or shoot with him because it is likely to get you hurt or in a very bad situation.
If you want to shoot smokeless then get or make a smokeless muzzle loader that is designed to withstand smokeless pressures.
Myth buster 2: 48 grains is NOT a small amount of this powder.
DO NOT DO IT!!! I would not trust a thing that this friend asks you to do. I would seriously question his IQ, honesty, or gullibility if he says these things to you. That is beyond playing with fire, and I would not even hunt or shoot with him because it is likely to get you hurt or in a very bad situation.
If you want to shoot smokeless then get or make a smokeless muzzle loader that is designed to withstand smokeless pressures.
sun
Well-Known Member
Jedman on CastBoolits posted about using the same 4198 smokeless powder and how to develop a safe load using a weak cartridge load as a guide.
"There are many inline muzzleloaders that would be safe to shoot with smokeless powder at shotgun pressures but your on your own for loading data. Many quality muzzleloader barrels are 4140 steel and would be perfectly safe but you wount get the manufacturer to ever say it's safe. Load data I have seen for the Savage smokeless MZ would scare the hell out of me even in their rifles. If I were to experiment using smokeless in a quality inline with 209 primers I would never use a full bore size bullet . Always use a sabot, compare what you are loading to something similar in a lower pressure cartridge then start a little lower. For example say you have a 45 cal. muzzleloader and want to shoot a 40 cal. boolit at lower pressure - think of the 38-40 cartridge with smokeless load data. Using a slower powder such as I 4198 or R 7 you can load whatever will fit in a 38-40 case with a 200 gr. Lead bullet and be within sammi limits and get reasonably hi velocities.
I am not giving any load recommendations but whatever velocities are possible with black powder and a given weight of boolit it is possible to duplicate or improve upon with smokeless at the same pressures.
Myself and several other I know have done quite a bit of testing smokeless loads with slower burn rate powders and realize we are in uncharted waters but don't push it for anything near what they say a Savage is capable of and have not had any indications we are stressing the gun."
And:
"Not to get to far off topic of this thread but it is still kinda the same thing is I took a early H&R 58 cal. Huntsman muzzleloader and lathe bored the breech end of the barrel to use 24 ga. shotgun hulls. It is shot with smokeless powder in a plastic hull with either a 54 cal. lead round ball in a 24 ga. Plastic wad or with a Lyman hollow based 58 cal. mini ball and roll crimped.
It is a proven pig killer ! "
See Posts #27 & #28: --->>> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...s-In-Line-Muzzleloaders&p=5002266#post5002266
"There are many inline muzzleloaders that would be safe to shoot with smokeless powder at shotgun pressures but your on your own for loading data. Many quality muzzleloader barrels are 4140 steel and would be perfectly safe but you wount get the manufacturer to ever say it's safe. Load data I have seen for the Savage smokeless MZ would scare the hell out of me even in their rifles. If I were to experiment using smokeless in a quality inline with 209 primers I would never use a full bore size bullet . Always use a sabot, compare what you are loading to something similar in a lower pressure cartridge then start a little lower. For example say you have a 45 cal. muzzleloader and want to shoot a 40 cal. boolit at lower pressure - think of the 38-40 cartridge with smokeless load data. Using a slower powder such as I 4198 or R 7 you can load whatever will fit in a 38-40 case with a 200 gr. Lead bullet and be within sammi limits and get reasonably hi velocities.
I am not giving any load recommendations but whatever velocities are possible with black powder and a given weight of boolit it is possible to duplicate or improve upon with smokeless at the same pressures.
Myself and several other I know have done quite a bit of testing smokeless loads with slower burn rate powders and realize we are in uncharted waters but don't push it for anything near what they say a Savage is capable of and have not had any indications we are stressing the gun."
And:
"Not to get to far off topic of this thread but it is still kinda the same thing is I took a early H&R 58 cal. Huntsman muzzleloader and lathe bored the breech end of the barrel to use 24 ga. shotgun hulls. It is shot with smokeless powder in a plastic hull with either a 54 cal. lead round ball in a 24 ga. Plastic wad or with a Lyman hollow based 58 cal. mini ball and roll crimped.
It is a proven pig killer ! "
See Posts #27 & #28: --->>> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...s-In-Line-Muzzleloaders&p=5002266#post5002266
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Thanks. I don't know anything about different kinds of powder since I've never been into reloading. I know not to do it because it's all over the owners manual and stamped on the side of the barrel and I've paid too much for it to mess it up. I've always been afraid to use a max load of 150 gr of blackpowder even though it's rated for it just because it sounds like a lot.
I just didn't understand what made blackpowder ok up to 150 grains but smokeless not ok in any amount. I've seen guys on video blow one up using smokeless. Then I've seen guys that talk like they're educated that use small amounts without problems. That's why I ask.
I just didn't understand what made blackpowder ok up to 150 grains but smokeless not ok in any amount. I've seen guys on video blow one up using smokeless. Then I've seen guys that talk like they're educated that use small amounts without problems. That's why I ask.
sun
Well-Known Member
Captain Crossman posted a powder burn rate chart from fastest to slowest powders.
It lists H4198 [Hodgdon] as being the 86th fastest powder out of the 173 powders listed.
It also lists IMR 4198 as being the 88th fastest powder.
It appears that its performance is in the middle of the chart.
See the powder burn rate chart in Post # 21.: --->>> https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=356221&highlight=smokeless+ruger
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sun
Well-Known Member
Smokeless powders are usually always measured by weight and not volume.
It's a very important distinction.
Is the 50 grain load by weight or volume?
Did they say that it's by weight?
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I'm really not sure if it was weight or volume. I assumed volume but I didn't ask since I wasn't planning on trying it. I've not really thought about the distinction. I've just been thinking on this subject and why Knight says it's fine for me to shoot 150 grains of blackpowder but absolutely 0 grains of smokeless.
Safari Hunt
Well-Known Member
NO! Do not/never use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader designed for black powder or a BP substitute.
It is a REALLY STUPID thing to do.
A good friend of mine MANY years ago blew up two muzzleloaders trying to use Red Dot shotgun powder. After the second one and being blessed with no personal injuries he stopped his foolishness.
A good friend of mine MANY years ago blew up two muzzleloaders trying to use Red Dot shotgun powder. After the second one and being blessed with no personal injuries he stopped his foolishness.
Wiley
Well-Known Member
If not the barrel blowing up, my fear would be a 3000 grain breech plug being propelled thru my skull. DON'T DO IT!
RoofingNinja
Member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2019
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- 8
The short answer is that smokeless powder generates higher pressure and has a quick rise to peak pressure and will generate more stress on the action than black powder. It's energy potential per unit is much higher than black powder.
The longer, dirty answer is this: a bullet is propelled by the chain reaction of the primer exploding, causing the powder to burn, which releases gasses which push the bullet out of the barrel. Smokeless powder burns at different rates based on the intended usage, but generally follows a faster and higher pressure curve than BP or substitutes. That fast climb to peak causes issues with some types of metal alloys or treatment methods. Black powder or substitutes use higher volumes of "weaker" burning chemical composition to propel the bullet out with a longer, lower pressure curve. The gasses are not as high in pressure, so they have to burn longer to create more of the gasses to propel the bullet at desired speeds.
I don't care what some random internet person on a forum that I don't know his name or credentials tells me. Shooting smokeless in a BP rifle is not safe.
sun
Well-Known Member
I posted the information to provide a basis for comparison and some overall perspective about its burn rate.
4198 can be used in both the .45-70 Government and .50-70 which were originally black powder cartridges used in many antique guns that were loaded with 70 grains of black powder.
Some of these antique guns were trap doors that were converted from civil war era .58 percussion muzzle loaders to .50-70, the parent cartridge of the ,45-70.
"The predecessor to the .45-70 was the .50-70-450 cartridge, adopted in 1866 and used until 1873 in a variety of rifles, many of them were percussion rifled muskets converted to trapdoor action breechloaders...."
.45-70 - Wikipedia
You can see what these military conversion looked like here:
45-70 GOVERNMENT - Cartridge Collector
At the end of the US Civil War in 1865, the military continued in their search to improve the weapons in their arsenal and that lead to the adoption of the Model 1865 Springfield based on the work done by Erskine S. Allin, who was the master armorer at the Springfield Armory in Massachusetts. He […]
www.cartridgecollector.net
And it's interesting to note that IMR 4198 is also used in one of the only published loads for the .50-70.
A lot of BPCR shooters load their .50-70 with 4198 as there are very few other smokeless powder loads for it.
"The only published smokeless 50-70 loads I've found using the Lyman 515141 call for 30 grs 4198 or 26.5 grs SR 4759, both using a Dacron over powder wad" --->>> http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9485
My point is that these antique guns being used with 4198 loads are not made with the quality 4140 steel that is used to make some of the modern inline barrels.
The quality of barrel construction needs to be considered as well as the pressure being produced by the specific load in order to determine whether a load is safe or unsafe.
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You're missing a few parts of the equation if you are comparing to a cartridge load. A ML starts with the bucket seated tight in the barrel and against the powder. If you don't do this then you can risk bulging the barrel with even acceptable loads.
With a cartridge load you have space inside of the brass case, as well as the leade for the bullet to jump. This allows for some expansion room and allows for some pressure to build more slowly and avoid the spike. This makes a huge difference, not to mention the trap door loads for 45/70 use a very reduced powder charge which created a lot of expansion room in the casing before the bullet jumps the leade and contacts the lands.
This phenomenon can be seen to some extent by working up a load that has too long of an OAL and getting a big pressure spike.
This is why you can't compare those apples and oranges
With a cartridge load you have space inside of the brass case, as well as the leade for the bullet to jump. This allows for some expansion room and allows for some pressure to build more slowly and avoid the spike. This makes a huge difference, not to mention the trap door loads for 45/70 use a very reduced powder charge which created a lot of expansion room in the casing before the bullet jumps the leade and contacts the lands.
This phenomenon can be seen to some extent by working up a load that has too long of an OAL and getting a big pressure spike.
This is why you can't compare those apples and oranges
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