Yearling Dispersal - whoa!

[DeerCamp]

I know it's not a popular thing to say, but I can see how one might theorize that focusing on buck harvest might possible slow the spread of CWD over larger geographical areas.

One could also easily theorize that we might be shooting the wrong sex of deer if the goal is to reduce the spread of CWD.

The problem being of course that does also go on excursions, hang out in much larger social groups and because they are not targeted for antler size (among other reasons), typically live longer than males.

Oh, and it gets worse. They also pass CWD on to their fawns via breastfeeding.


So far this year Tennessee is currently harvesting 1.9 bucks for every doe, and the real ration is certainly higher than that.

 

[TX300mag]

One could also easily theorize that we might be shooting the wrong sex of deer if the goal is to reduce the spread of CWD.

The problem being of course that does also go on excursions, hang out in much larger social groups and because they are not targeted for antler size (among other reasons), typically live longer than males.

Oh, and it gets worse. They also pass CWD on to their fawns via breastfeeding.


So far this year Tennessee is currently harvesting 1.9 bucks for every doe, and the real ration is certainly higher than that.

They actually are targeting does specifically. Bucks submitted for testing don't earn additional bucks like antlerless, but are "replaced" only if the deer tests positive.

Again, because hunters themselves generally don't kill does like we would like to think.

 

[DeerCamp]

They actually are targeting does specifically. Bucks submitted for testing don't earn additional bucks like antlerless, but are "replaced" only if the deer tests positive.

Again, because hunters themselves generally don't kill does like we would like to think.

To be quite honest, I'm not sure what TWRA is trying to accomplish, or if we even have CWD near Henderson County at all.

Bu what are the actual, tangible goals? What percentage reduction are they going for? How many dead deer does it take to keep other deer from dying in their old age from a disease that we can't cure?

If the goal is to harvest more does, why are we limited to 3 per day?

If the goal is to harvest more bucks, why are we limited to 1 per day?

Why limit the number of depradation permits a farmer can get?

Why allow food plots?

Lets just go 365/24/7, no limits, all weapons, night hunting included.

Heck, let's just drop tactical nukes on the state forests. Maybe that will destroy the prions too.

(Obviously, this is not directed at you brother).

 

[TX300mag]

To be quite honest, I'm not sure what TWRA is trying to accomplish, or if we even have CWD near Henderson County at all.

Bu what are the actual, tangible goals? What percentage reduction are they going for? How many dead deer does it take to keep other deer from dying in their old age from a disease that we can't cure?

If the goal is to harvest more does, why are we limited to 3 per day?

If the goal is to harvest more bucks, why are we limited to 1 per day?

Why limit the number of depradation permits a farmer can get?

Why allow food plots?

Lets just go 365/24/7, no limits, all weapons, night hunting included.

Heck, let's just drop tactical nukes on the state forests. Maybe that will destroy the prions too.

(Obviously, this is not directed at you brother).

Probably because none of it is going to stop it. I think best case scenario is slowing it just a little.

I'm not sure what the best course of action is. I just don't want hunting opportunities and limits lowered to satisfy the antler hobbyists because it will result in MORE of farmers slaughtering them indiscriminately at night in huge numbers because hunters aren't controlling them.

 

[BSK]

Probably because none of it is going to stop it. I think best case scenario is slowing it just a little.

As I've said many times, nothing we do will stop the spread of CWD. It will eventually spread across the entire whitetails range, from Canada to Central America. The only answer is Nature herself. Eventually, deer that are resistant or even immune will occur, just by the randomness of Nature and the extremely high genetic diversity of whitetails. Those resistant/immune will spread their genetics through the population while those not resistant/immune slowly die off. Killing off the deer population to "slow the spread" is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm not sure what the best course of action is. I just don't want hunting opportunities and limits lowered to satisfy the antler hobbyists because it will result in MORE of farmers slaughtering them indiscriminately at night in huge numbers because hunters aren't controlling them.

This is really a Catch 22. Wildlife Agencies want herd densities reduced so they enact very liberal female harvest regulations. Hunters eagerly participate at first, enjoying the extra harvest opportunities. Until they realize killing a lot of does lowers the population and the hunting experience declines. Then they stop shooting does. We've already seen this process play out in TN. The Agency then has to turn to "other means" to knock the population down. Hence, depredation permits and what sounds like wholesale slaughter of local deer populations to satisfy the economic desires of farmers. Is this the correct answer? I'm not sure. I'm glad I don't work for one of the State Agencies, as those are tough calls.

 

[DeerCamp]

Probably because none of it is going to stop it. I think best case scenario is slowing it just a little.

I'm not sure what the best course of action is. I just don't want hunting opportunities and limits lowered to satisfy the antler hobbyists because it will result in MORE of farmers slaughtering them indiscriminately at night in huge numbers because hunters aren't controlling them.

I agree 100% with all of this.

However, if the best we can do is "slow it a little" then it sounds like a lot of effort for very little gain.

Especially if the current restrictions allow you to bring a deer from an actual CWD Hotspot like Hardeman County into Henderson County, which probably does not have CWD.

If the whistle-blower allegations are true, and I have good reason to believe that at least part of them are, TWRA has botched this entire situation.

 

[BSK]

If the whistle-blower allegations are true, and I have good reason to believe that at least part of them are, TWRA has botched this entire situation.

And if these allegations are even partially true, the Agency will have completely lost the trust of those who pay their salaries. THIS could be the worst part of the whole debacle.

 

[TX300mag]

As I've said many times, nothing we do will stop the spread of CWD. It will eventually spread across the entire whitetails range, from Canada to Central America. The only answer is Nature herself. Eventually, deer that are resistant or even immune will occur, just by the randomness of Nature and the extremely high genetic diversity of whitetails. Those resistant/immune will spread their genetics through the population while those not resistant/immune slowly die off. Killing off the deer population to "slow the spread" is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


This is really a Catch 22. Wildlife Agencies want herd densities reduced so they enact very liberal female harvest regulations. Hunters eagerly participate at first, enjoying the extra harvest opportunities. Until they realize killing a lot of does lowers the population and the hunting experience declines. Then they stop shooting does. We've already seen this process play out in TN. The Agency then has to turn to "other means" to knock the population down. Hence, depredation permits and what sounds like wholesale slaughter of local deer populations to satisfy the economic desires of farmers. Is this the correct answer? I'm not sure. I'm glad I don't work for one of the State Agencies, as those are tough calls.

I think there are other factors in hunters not shooting as many does a few years after entering Unit L.

From my experience of Henderson Co entering Unit L in 2009 two things happened shortly after. 1. Does became wary after suddenly becoming targets after years of freely feeding in open fields and food plots making them harder to kill and simultaneously giving the impression that population is being decimated. 2. It got old. Killing, dragging, gutting, processing (including paying for processing).

 

[DeerCamp]

And if these allegations are even partially true, the Agency will have completely lost the trust of those who pay their salaries. THIS could be the worst part of the whole debacle.

Filing for sovereign immunity doesn't help the look.

 

[BSK]

Filing for sovereign immunity doesn't help the look.

Agreed.

It is Human Nature for us to follow rules we believe are good, well-founded rules. People tend to not follow rules they believe are arbitrary, capricious and potentially ill-founded.

 

[BSK]

I think there are other factors in hunters not shooting as many does a few years after entering Unit L.

From my experience of Henderson Co entering Unit L in 2009 two things happened shortly after. 1. Does became wary after suddenly becoming targets after years of freely feeding in open fields and food plots making them harder to kill and simultaneously giving the impression that population is being decimated. 2. It got old. Killing, dragging, gutting, processing (including paying for processing).

I would agree with all of this.

 

[TX300mag]

I would agree with all of this.

I should've worded it "additional" factors

 

[DeerCamp]

And if these allegations are even partially true, the Agency will have completely lost the trust of those who pay their salaries. THIS could be the worst part of the whole debacle.

Let me tell you 2 reasons why I strongly believe they are at least partially true.

1. I have a professional connection that knows him and vouched for him. Can't elaborate on specifics, but I trust this person implicitly.

2. The timeline makes sense.

• For the first 3 years, TWRA sent all suspect positive samples for IHC confirmation. CWD progression was normal.
• First red flag: 2021 Positive ELISA in Crockett County, but the confirmatory was negative. Did not make Crockett CWD positive.
• Shortly after this, Dr. Dan Grove starts advocating to stop IHC testing
• 2021 - HUGE RED FLAG The rate of positive ELISA results specifically from the Kord Lab Group increases 400%, despite a decrease in samples sent
• TWRA then receives 4 suspect positive samples from 3 East Tennessee counties - they do not add them to CWD because they suspect testing error
• Henderson, Gibson, Henry, Weakley etc all added due to positive ELISA tests from Kord group - none confirmed
• CWD then appears to be spreading at a catastrophic rate - except this doesn't make sense because there are no other positives from those counties. That's not how diseases spread. You have hotspots that gradually progress with occasional outliers surrounded by other new hotspots.

If you haven't read the entire complaint, it is eye opening.

And HOLY SH*T the absolute biggest red flag is that TWRA was using 2 different labs, but their positivity rates were drastically different from the labs. THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN. Its statistically impossible with the volume of samples being tested.

This man is telling the truth. TWRA made a huge mistake, and in order to save face and untold lawsuits, intimated and fired this man when they realized he was not going to be quiet about it.

 

[BSK]

Fascinating info DeerCamp.

 

[DeerCamp]

Fascinating info DeerCamp.

Based on the complaint, it looks like they asked for the raw data from Kord lab. It showed that the suspect positives were in gel next to confirmed positives. Most likely cross contamination from someone not changing a pippette or gel leakage.

When they met with Kord group about this, the lab said TWRA should have done confirmatory testing before announcing.

This is all just "accusation" at this point. But look at my next post.

 

[DeerCamp]

Fascinating info DeerCamp.

Notice anything about this map? Dyer, Gibson, Weakley, Henry and Henderson. Those outliers are purple.

Purple because they occurred in 2021, all in the same time frame. This just happens (what a coincidence) to be right when the Kord lab screwed up, and TWRA didn't confirm. In fact, these are some of the sample that Kelly says were later confirmed negative by IHC

See any green (2022) or red (2023) dots near those? Nope, me either. All of those positives all at the same time, and nothing since.

He's telling the truth.

 

[hammer33]

It is only when localized populations are distinctly lacking in genetic diversity that inbreeding begins to cause all sorts of genetic problems. This is the case with Humans. We are the least genetically diverse mammal on the planet.

Well that explains our local walmart !!

 

[hammer33]

As I've said many times, nothing we do will stop the spread of CWD. It will eventually spread across the entire whitetails range, from Canada to Central America. The only answer is Nature herself. Eventually, deer that are resistant or even immune will occur, just by the randomness of Nature and the extremely high genetic diversity of whitetails. Those resistant/immune will spread their genetics through the population while those not resistant/immune slowly die off. Killing off the deer population to "slow the spread" is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

We raise sheep and there is a big push for RR and at least QR genetic markers for scrapie resistance. QQ is the least resistant and RR is the most resistant. Scrapie has not been a problem in the US in a long time due mostly to more modern farming, aka breeding, rotational grazing, and vet practices. The goal for our herd is to keep the RR lambs as breeding stock, coupled with a quality RR ram thus ensuring all lambs are RR allowing the Q gene trait to fade out.

I agree that the "solution" to cwd is nature. Over time, CWD will become irrelevant to the average hunter. It might affect the antler selling hunting industry who could loose some of the $$$$$$$$$$ older big racked bucks, thus warping the current business model. I'm not totally convinced that this would be a bad thing for hunting overall.

Imagine how hunting might change if big old bucks became very very scarce. Would the hunting experience shift back toward the "old days" of camp and camaraderie? A tremendous amount of the hunting culture is media driven which is also driven by $$$$$. IF big bucks fell out of favor as the holy grail of marketing, what would fill the void? What would the industry be selling as the next new thing?

 

[BSK]

Imagine how hunting might change if big old bucks became very very scarce. Would the hunting experience shift back toward the "old days" of camp and camaraderie? A tremendous amount of the hunting culture is media driven which is also driven by $$$$$. IF big bucks fell out of favor as the holy grail of marketing, what would fill the void? What would the industry be selling as the next new thing?

This is just my guess after watching other CWD areas: deer hunting fades as an activity and lifestyle. Hunters move on to either hunting other species or leave hunting all-together. That doesn't mean deer hunting ends, it just falls in priority/popularity. Basically, just the hard-core are left deer hunting.

 

[TheLBLman]

This is just my guess after watching other CWD areas: deer hunting fades as an activity and lifestyle. Hunters move on to either hunting other species or leave hunting all-together. That doesn't mean deer hunting ends, it just falls in priority/popularity. Basically, just the hard-core are left deer hunting.

Pretty much what has happened now in many West TN "cwd" counties