Baiting Bill HB1618/SB1942

[deerhunter10]

might be but I do own land and should have a say in the vote!!! if you dont im sorry!!! i love all this kindergarten name calling also!! JEALOUS MUCH???????

Noone is jealous, we don't even know you. Make a half way decent argument, and settle down with the punctuation then maybe we can a discussion. Just because you own land and someone else doesn't, that's not grounds to do whatever you want to do. It's about the animals not all about you.

 

[Hawk103161]

When hunting over bait is legalized, shooting over bait becomes more or less a new pissing contest, diverting from the former sport of hunting.

If baiting were legalized would you start to bait? There are some that no matter the law they would never bait. There are other that the only thing keeping them from it is the law. Nothing like getting permission to do something or not do something on my own Private property from people who don't have a clue since they live in the walls of a city.

 

[Hawk103161]

To me baiting is baiting and I'm not a fan, for all the various reasons listed through this thread. And here in TN the wardens actually patrol/visit the known dove fields, including the one I hunt, to ensure there's no seed on the ground that didn't fall from the plants growing there. I'm not sure how that's going to go for them going forward considering the supreme court shutting down their ability to trespass without warrant, but up until last year it was something they did. And I've never had a problem with it.

I dove hunted Chuck Swann WMA last year. Those fields had SO much top seed (bare field) on it that if it was a private field they would give you a ticket at the very least for sure. If you give the Wardens permission they can come on your property. If they have a reasonable suspicion I think they can too. The very least they can do road blocks to and from .

 

[Hawk103161]

Have you not seen first hand the turkey population? Maybe go do some research. Instead of putting 10 exclamation marks after each thing you type.

Noone is stopping you from baiting, you just legally can't hunt over it. As crazy as some of yal are fighting on this thread about it. I would be willing to bet some of yal already do. When we go down to a 1 bird turkey limit in the future you have no reason to be upset.

I don't believe the Turkey population has declined from piles of corn. I believe it is the nest raiders, coyotes, feral cat population and the loss of farm/rural lands I.E. nesting areas.

 

[Hawk103161]

True but if it gets moldy nobody would feed it to their livestock. Not if they have a brain.

Unless it's super super bad it gets fed. Then you do something about your storage. I've got some big ol meal worms right now. Dang thing about them is they make moisture as they feed so it will stay the way they like it.

 

[TheLBLman]

TheLBLman said:
When hunting over bait is legalized, shooting over bait becomes more or less a new pissing contest, diverting from the former sport of hunting.

If baiting were legalized would you start to bait?
There are some that no matter the law they would never bait.

I am one of those who chooses not to hunt over bait where legal.
It's been legal in KY for decades, and I've never knowingly done it.

There are others that the only thing keeping them from it is the law.

And then there are the TN baiters who just snub their nose at the law, and do it illegally.

Nothing like getting permission to do something or not do something on my own Private property from people who don't have a clue since they live in the walls of a city.

I'm in general agreement with private property rights, but they are invalid as an excuse for committing crimes for which the property ownership becomes an excuse and/or means of making the crime(s) easier to commit without getting caught.

Many things are illegal, regardless whether you own or don't the property on which you commit the crime. Sex with a goat is illegal, whether you do it on your own property, someone else's, or publicly owned property. Same goes for illegally killing game over bait in TN. If you want to have sex with a goat or kill deer over a corn pile, you can find a place to do either legally, but both acts are currently crimes in TN.

We cannot have an intelligent, much less honest, discussion about killing game over bait piles without recognizing such discussion has little to do with land property rights, and everything to do with the property rights of those who own the wildlife (rather than the land).

In Tennessee, most wildlife (think deer & turkey) are owned by the citizens of TN. The free-roaming (or flying) wildlife is not owned by any landowner just because that wildlife may include a landowner's property within its range of roaming & feeding.

But there are work-arounds. If you want to install a deer-proof fence around your property, then the deer within your fenced property become legally viewed more as a farm animal than a free-roaming deer. Under such circumstance, you may find it within your private property rights to legally hunt "your" deer year-round. But then, would your deer killing be more hunting or just more like shooting a farm animal?

Seems much in life is very complicated & confusing. Often, the laws become the lessor of multiple evils, with pros of a particular law outweighing its cons. But it remains that our "rule of law" is much the glue holding civil society together. So are property rights, whether we're talking private land property, or wildlife as property belonging to all of us.

 

[TheLBLman]

I don't believe the Turkey population has declined from piles of corn. I believe it is the nest raiders, coyotes, feral cat population and the loss of farm/rural lands I.E. nesting areas.

Corn feeding has simply been one of many factors contributing to turkey population fluctuations in TN. It is a factor, and one that has more cons than pros.

Wild, free-roaming turkeys tend to group up in large flocks to winter. Often these flocks are composed of most the turkeys that had been otherwise freely roaming & feeding in the surrounding area of say a mile in every direction. So in this simple example, let's say most of the turkeys regularly using 4 square miles, or a land area of about 2,500 acres.

A few years ago (in TN) I witnessed a large wintering turkey flock get wiped out by a single batch of corn that had developed aflatoxin. Since the corn had been placed after deer season, and was never hunted over, it was perfectly legal. The landowner thought this a great idea to help the deer & turkey have an easy food source, and something to help them get through January/February more healthily.

All the turkey in that area were believed killed by this one corner feeder. Worse, coyotes were able to survive better thru January/February, having an abundance of turkey carcasses on which to feed. It then took about 3 years for the turkeys to become re-established in that area.

That loss of wildlife (turkey, in this case, but also all birds that consumed that corn) adversely effected many different private land property owners, not just the one who had placed the feeder. Think about the risks of multiple land-owners placing corn feeders in their back yards, so they can see more wildlife from their kitchen windows. Many private landowners can get adversely effected by the acts of only one.

In most of TN, it remains legal to "feed" wildlife, so long as you're not killing that wildlife over that "bait".

It might be better for wildlife if all intentional "feeding" of wildlife in TN were deemed illegal, including wildlife feeders in the backyards of so many homes. But this is just one of those issues were the pros & the cons are too close for such a law to be enacted, and it's a struggle to find exactly where the lines should be drawn between illegal & legal.

Never mind that more harm than help is generally happening with the feeding of wildlife.

I'm just trying to educate any who will listen to the "cons" of both feeding & baiting. We mainly only hear the "pros" from those commercially selling deer food products, deer feeders, and "canned" hunts over bait. Such "products" are much the advertising dollars of most hunting videos, shows, and/or hunting magazines we might read.

 

[scn]

TheLBLman said:
When hunting over bait is legalized, shooting over bait becomes more or less a new pissing contest, diverting from the former sport of hunting.

I am one of those who chooses not to hunt over bait where legal.
It's been legal in KY for decades, and I've never knowingly done it.


And then there are the TN baiters who just snub their nose at the law, and do it illegally.


I'm in general agreement with private property rights, but they are invalid as an excuse for committing crimes for which the property ownership becomes an excuse and/or means of making the crime(s) easier to commit without getting caught.

Many things are illegal, regardless whether you own or don't the property on which you commit the crime. Sex with a goat is illegal, whether you do it on your own property, someone else's, or publicly owned property. Same goes for illegally killing game over bait in TN. If you want to have sex with a goat or kill deer over a corn pile, you can find a place to do either legally, but both acts are currently crimes in TN.

We cannot have an intelligent, much less honest, discussion about killing game over bait piles without recognizing such discussion has little to do with land property rights, and everything to do with the property rights of those who own the wildlife (rather than the land).

In Tennessee, most wildlife (think deer & turkey) are owned by the citizens of TN. The free-roaming (or flying) wildlife is not owned by any landowner just because that wildlife may include a landowner's property within its range of roaming & feeding.

But there are work-arounds. If you want to install a deer-proof fence around your property, then the deer within your fenced property become legally viewed more as a farm animal than a free-roaming deer. Under such circumstance, you may find it within your private property rights to legally hunt "your" deer year-round. But then, would your deer killing be more hunting or just more like shooting a farm animal?

Seems much in life is very complicated & confusing. Often, the laws become the lessor of multiple evils, with pros of a particular law outweighing its cons. But it remains that our "rule of law" is much the glue holding civil society together. So are property rights, whether we're talking private land property, or wildlife as property belonging to all of us.

ut there are work-arounds. If you want to install a deer-proof fence around your property, then the deer within your fenced property become legally viewed more as a farm animal than a free-roaming deer. Under such circumstance, you may find it within your private property rights to legally hunt "your" deer year-round. But then, would your deer killing be more hunting or just more like shooting a farm animal?


Wrong.

Deer within a security fence are no different than those roaming outside of one. All regulations still apply to them.

 

[TheLBLman]

Deer within a security fence are no different than those roaming outside of one. All regulations still apply to them.

Well there you go, then. Still illegal to kill a deer over a bait pile, even when your property is surrounded by a deer-proof fence. Presume it would also remain illegal to have sex with a goat.

 

[Hawk103161]

Well there you go, then. Still illegal to kill a deer over a bait pile, even when your property is surrounded by a deer-proof fence. Presume it would also remain illegal to have sex with a goat.

Did you read about the Sex with a Goat law or get caught..asking for a friend

 

[Hawk103161]

TheLBLman said I'm just trying to educate any who will listen to the "cons" of both feeding & baiting. We mainly only hear the "pros" from those commercially selling deer food products, deer feeders, and "canned" hunts over bait. Such "products" are much the advertising dollars of most hunting videos, shows, and/or hunting magazines we might read.
Just look inside our very own Tennessee Fishing and Hunting guide book. Lots of Ads for all the things you speak negatively about except Goat Sex

 

[Snake]

By looking at the reasons we shouldn't put corn out whether or not for bait or for viewing pleasure why can't it all be stopped ?? The badmouthing only has been directed to those that are for baiting and not the people doing it for the viewing . The reasons are that it's dangerous for birds and turkeys , maybe deer but it's still allowed for viewing. Seems it's more of an issue for those that would like to bait much moreso . Been called names and even said learn to hunt ....da da da . Setting in a shooting house learns what ? Even permanent stands learns what ? It teaches that when the deer you want comes by...shoot it ! Not many do as our forefather hunters did in days gone past . Yes it takes scouting to be able to put a stand where you feel deer will come by ...so does scouting to learn where is the best place to put out bait . It's been voted down for baiting so most are happy but John Doe can still put in bait out as long as he's not hunting over it . Seems kinda sad that they can't implement a law that says " no corn " or pass a law that deems it illegal to sell corn that's not antiaflatoxin ! I'm thinking it's not just the fact that's it's harmful for turkeys or birds it's that it seems a easy way to hunt that bothers most .

 

[BigJohnJTP]

After having cruised through the last 46 pages of this "discussion" I think there is far too much speculative opinion that is often very narrow in a particular focus from each participants viewpoint:

People say things like:
"1) baiting will make my deer hunting worse because my neighbors will be able to afford more feed and the deer will go to their property,
2) baiting will make deer hunting worse because of aflatoxins so everyone's deer hunting will be worse,
3) I don't want law enforcement bureaucrats having an excuse to come on my property without a warrant in a fishing expedition,
4) baiting in general is impossibly hypocritical to enforce when TWRA "baits" some dove fields with naturally planted grains and then cites people for hunting "over bait" that someone threw out in a field they were not even aware of, and neighbors may bait while you don't, and non-hunters put out food for all kinds of wildlife,
5) etc. etc. "

A lot of overlapping but somewhat conflicting perspectives when trying to develop public policy that affects a lot of very different people.

Personally I don't care one way or the other about it because I get plenty of venison for the freezer without needing to throw corn around. But I don't think government bureaucrats should be telling us what to do on our own land. AND If something is a bad idea PERSUADE us and the general public to not do that with educational informative information BACKED UP BY RESEARCH DATA. I see very little of this actual data coming from TWRA showing why they make recommendations. In meetings announced or publications.

I have a Bachelors Degree in Biology from more than half a century ago (Tennessee Tech) and one of my sons has a Bachelors Degree in Wildlife Management from about 7 years ago (U of Tn). We expect/respect scientific data to be used to steer public policy.

So here's some insight into the "bigger picture." I've been subscribing to Deer and Deer Hunting Magazine for 20+ years. They have nationally respected biologists and scientists and they covered baiting in their December 2019 issue:

Knowing they will ruffle some feathers they say they are pro-bating because they see it as a hunter recruitment issue among other issues. And they provide a table named "Where is Baiting Legal" that shows "Of the 44 states with huntable whitetail populations, more than half (25) allow deer baiting (for hunting) in some areas."

Here's the opinion that gives examples of states with a declining hunter population and the economic impact on the states:

and the article:

You can download the entire issue for $3.95 here:

Deer & Deer Hunting December 2019 (Digital)

www.discountmags.com

 

[BigJohnJTP]

BTW the Discount Mags website is slow to respond so you may have better luck reading the issue online for the same price in the Zinio library at https://www.zinio.com/publications/deer-deer-hunting/5331/issues/442273

Watch out. The Zinio verification email might go to your Spam folder.

 

[MickThompson]

After having cruised through the last 46 pages of this "discussion" I think there is far too much speculative opinion that is often very narrow in a particular focus from each participants viewpoint:

People say things like:
"1) baiting will make my deer hunting worse because my neighbors will be able to afford more feed and the deer will go to their property,
2) baiting will make deer hunting worse because of aflatoxins so everyone's deer hunting will be worse,
3) I don't want law enforcement bureaucrats having an excuse to come on my property without a warrant in a fishing expedition,
4) baiting in general is impossibly hypocritical to enforce when TWRA "baits" some dove fields with naturally planted grains and then cites people for hunting "over bait" that someone threw out in a field they were not even aware of, and neighbors may bait while you don't, and non-hunters put out food for all kinds of wildlife,
5) etc. etc. "

A lot of overlapping but somewhat conflicting perspectives when trying to develop public policy that affects a lot of very different people.

Personally I don't care one way or the other about it because I get plenty of venison for the freezer without needing to throw corn around. But I don't think government bureaucrats should be telling us what to do on our own land. AND If something is a bad idea PERSUADE us and the general public to not do that with educational informative information BACKED UP BY RESEARCH DATA. I see very little of this actual data coming from TWRA showing why they make recommendations. In meetings announced or publications.

I have a Bachelors Degree in Biology from more than half a century ago (Tennessee Tech) and one of my sons has a Bachelors Degree in Wildlife Management from about 7 years ago (U of Tn). We expect/respect scientific data to be used to steer public policy.

So here's some insight into the "bigger picture." I've been subscribing to Deer and Deer Hunting Magazine for 20+ years. They have nationally respected biologists and scientists and they covered baiting in their December 2019 issue:

View attachment 237745

Knowing they will ruffle some feathers they say they are pro-bating because they see it as a hunter recruitment issue among other issues. And they provide a table named "Where is Baiting Legal" that shows "Of the 44 states with huntable whitetail populations, more than half (25) allow deer baiting (for hunting) in some areas."

Here's the opinion that gives examples of states with a declining hunter population and the economic impact on the states:

View attachment 237746

and the article:

View attachment 237747

You can download the entire issue for $3.95 here:

Deer & Deer Hunting December 2019 (Digital)

www.discountmags.com

Who are the experts?

 

[trkhunter]

where did everyone go??? i guess they run out of answers and names to slander?????

Peckerhead

struck a nerve with you i see

 

[trkhunter]

We generally dove hunt over beans and millet after we cut hay or grow sunflowers as we do almost every year. We top sow wheat quite often. But we do it for hay so it's still agriculture. And it's an agriculture practice. Does it mean birds dont use it no but you go through the entire process. You dont take a bushel of wheat and throw it in a pile. Also wheat germinates quick so that line is thin. For me personally turkeys are the only thing I'm concerned of. I said on page 1 or 2 I don't care if you want to bait for deer. But don't compare it to a food plot and don't try to write it off as the same nutrition or the same benefits of a foodplot.

whatever makes you sleep at night

 

[trkhunter]

Noone is jealous, we don't even know you. Make a half way decent argument, and settle down with the punctuation then maybe we can a discussion. Just because you own land and someone else doesn't, that's not grounds to do whatever you want to do. It's about the animals not all about you.

Heres my argument. i own my property and should be able to do whatever i damn well please!!!! If someone wants to help make the payments then by all means. ill listen to advice. funny thing is no one has offered!!!!! its very obvious you dont own anything!!!!!

 

[Pilchard]

Heres my argument. i own my property and should be able to do whatever i damn well please!!!! If someone wants to help make the payments then by all means. ill listen to advice. funny thing is no one has offered!!!!! its very obvious you dont own anything!!!!!

Where do you buy your corn?

 

[timberjack86]

Who are the experts?

Look around the room. I think we all are