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Big changes from the meeting today

What I find humorous to a degree is that without decoys there would be far less dominant birds taken early, thus allowing more hens to be bred, thus populations staying strong, and thus not having to take such drastic measures.

I have posted for years, that the greed of the decoy crowd would come back and bite us all. I explicitly stated, give them up or face the consequences of lower limits etc. Just like when we beat the drum 4 birds was too many, and so many argued it wasn't, we were unfortunately right again

Hopefully the delay is enough even with the plastic turkeys remaining
 
megalomaniac said:
It really isn't rocket science....

The old timer biologists had it right... spring gobbler harvest won't affect turkey populations if the males are removed AFTER the hens are bred.

It's just common sense... if season opens before hens are bred, and you kill half of the entire seasons gobblers before hens are bred... well ... that might lead to some lonely hens when it comes time to breed and lay eggs.

Sure, the real decline is more complicated than that... but who of you is going to improve habitat and improve nesting cover so the poults have better brood habitat? Who of you are going to remove predators so the hens, their eggs, and their poults are going to have a better chance of survival?

For the 90% of 'turkey hunters' lazy SOBs that just want to post their FB kills or their Instagram likes, delaying season opening is the best 'sacrifice' (although just a minor sacrifice) they can make.

For those that really care about the wild turkey, they are going to keep putting more back than they take... improving habitat, trapping predators, self limiting harvest in areas with few birds.

The assumption that turkeys will now always be available in huntable populations throughout the US is just plain wrong. WE as hunters have to do whatever is necessary to ensure we hear their gobbles every spring. If you arent putting back more than you take
.. well, YOU are the problem, and no season structure, harvest limit, or any other govt regulation can undo the damage you are doing. QUIT taking the experience of wild turkey hunting for granted.

(Sorry for the soap box rant...)
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Well said…especially about it not being rocket science.
Guys are so unwilling to limit themselves that the state has to step in. It's like that in all walks of life unfortunately.
 
Bone Collector said:
My understanding is that it will still be a 45 day season, though I question how fun the turkey hunting will be in mid to late May. I know it got awfully quiet the last weekend of season this year, which was technically the third weekend in May, but only about half way through the month. That being said I saw a tom strutting for hens last week on the way into work.
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Maybe that's one of their thoughts. Most will quit hunting before the end of May which will save what gobblers are left for next year. Don't want to get an argument started but I don't think any of these new regs will increase the population but I hope it does.
 
Willysman said:
Maybe that's one of their thoughts. Most will quit hunting before the end of May which will save what gobblers are left for next year. Don't want to get an argument started but I don't think any of these new regs will increase the population but I hope it does.
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Agree completely, new regs will save a handful of birds for 'carryover' but the regs won't increase the population one bit. But I DO think it will slow the decline to the point in a few years where we hit a plateau where the population becomes stable. Not as many birds available to hunt as anyone wants, but enough to make for a reasonable spring season ( hearing 1 or 2 gobblers per 7 days hunting). As bad as that sounds, I'd take that kind of gobbling activity over the next 20 years versus having no birds to hunt at all.
 
megalomaniac said:
Agree completely, new regs will save a handful of birds for 'carryover' but the regs won't increase the population one bit. But I DO think it will slow the decline to the point in a few years where we hit a plateau where the population becomes stable. Not as many birds available to hunt as anyone wants, but enough to make for a reasonable spring season ( hearing 1 or 2 gobblers per 7 days hunting). As bad as that sounds, I'd take that kind of gobbling activity over the next 20 years versus having no birds to hunt at all.
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I think the main issue where they will face scrutiny is many will base it off where they hunt. For instance, I have noticed a decline since when I started hunting them in 2010. It didn't start until about 2016, where I hunt, but it has gotten worse.

That being said, this year I saw a bunch of Jakes and heard gobbles on 95%+ of my hunts. I hunt mainly public, but did hunt private with my nephews twice. Due to these types of scenarios many will question the need for bag limit reductions and shorter seasons.

IMO the TWRA did this big study, but the one piece of data they need to sell these changes is the actual # of turkey hunters. If that # is up drastically and then you factor in the fact more corn is going out in front of cameras that brings in predators, then it is easier to sell these types of plans. Also, I think they have to accept that if it works and you do see populations start to increase, you may open a week earlier than where it is now in this proposal and take the limit back to 3. The key is being flexible with the resource (1st) and the end users (2nd) in mind.
 
Setterman said:
What I find humorous to a degree is that without decoys there would be far less dominant birds taken early, thus allowing more hens to be bred, thus populations staying strong, and thus not having to take such drastic measures.

I have posted for years, that the greed of the decoy crowd would come back and bite us all. I explicitly stated, give them up or face the consequences of lower limits etc. Just like when we beat the drum 4 birds was too many, and so many argued it wasn't, we were unfortunately right again

Hopefully the delay is enough even with the plastic turkeys remaining
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I agree. I would much rather see season open normal with no tom or Jake decoys the first two weeks vs. delaying it two weeks and having stipulations on public land. Of course no decoys and no fanning is harder to enforce than just opening two weeks later.
 
Bone Collector said:
Of course no decoys and no fanning is harder to enforce than just opening two weeks later.
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Of course it is.

Another issue is the commissioners were astute enough, despite a couple of them not knowing the difference between a longbeard & a jake, to realize that banning decoys would actually have little effect on the total number of longbeards killed during the course of the season. It would effect which hunters killed the birds, but little effect on the total annual kill.

For the accomplished turkey hunters who hunt public land a lot (like Setterman), I would have to ask just how many other hunters do you run into using decoys? I strongly believe most of the turkeys killed on public land are killed by avid, accomplished turkey hunters NOT using decoys. In fact, I actually believe I personally benefit by those who sit in a tent over their decoys, leaving vast areas available to me without their interference.

Don't take this wrong, as I strongly believe "fanning" should be an illegal tactic. But as to decoys in general, including male ones, I found them to be overall at least as much liability as asset. What's more, most of the hunters wanting them to be made illegal are the accomplished hunters who have been annually killing the full limit.

The primary (regulatory) goal here is for there to be fewer turkeys killed, and killed later in the season, irrelevant as to which particular hunters kill them. The two week delay was the single-most important thing that could be done towards this goal.
 
TheLBLman said:
For the accomplished turkey hunters who hunt public land a lot (like Setterman), I would have to ask just how many other hunters do you run into using decoys? I strongly believe most of the turkeys killed on public land are killed by avid, accomplished turkey hunters NOT using decoys. In fact, I actually believe I personally benefit by those who sit in a tent over their decoys, leaving vast areas available to me without their interference. I hunt public with no decoys, but I am not an accomplished turkey hunter. I usually get 1-2 per year. I use no decoys and no blinds. I see guys hunting in the woods with no blinds, but they do tote the decoys... mainly jake and hen dekes though.

Don't take this wrong, as I strongly believe "fanning" should be an illegal tactic. But as to decoys in general, including male ones, I found them to be overall at least as much liability as asset. What's more, most of the hunters wanting them to be made illegal are the accomplished hunters who have been annually killing the full limit. That has been my experience.

The primary (regulatory) goal here is for there to be fewer turkeys killed, and killed later in the season, irrelevant as to which particular hunters kill them. The two week delay was the single-most important thing that could be done towards this goal. I agree just hate that late May hunting will mainly be silent for the most part.
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Bone Collector said:
I see guys hunting in the woods with no blinds, but they do tote the decoys... mainly jake and hen dekes though.
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I see a few of those googans as well, but they are mostly NOT the ones killing the longbeards.
Like you observed, they "tote" the decoys; mostly out of inexperience,
having bought into the marketing hype.
 
AT Hiker said:
If NR residents show up in massive numbers in late May to hunt, they will be consumed by chiggers and ticks. Then we will never have to worry about them again.
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I know it will never happen because of money but if I was king for a day I would make non-resident a draw hunt just like they do WMA hunts. But that's just me.
 
I am happy with all of it. 5 to 8 years ago probably would have not been, but after seeing what our farms looked like this year compared to 5 years ago some action is better then none. It's a start and hopefully helps and hopefully within the next year or two some studies show us more of a direction we can go to be proactive. Honestly if you can't tell a difference in a Jake and a gobbler I hope you aren't hunting near me. I think its a decent start wish it ended sooner but it is what it is. I hope they come after decoys harder in the future.
 
deerhunter10 said:
I am happy with all of it. 5 to 8 years ago probably would have not been, but after seeing what our farms looked like this year compared to 5 years ago some action is better then none. It's a start and hopefully helps and hopefully within the next year or two some studies show us more of a direction we can go to be proactive. Honestly if you can't tell a difference in a Jake and a gobbler I hope you aren't hunting near me. I think its a decent start wish it ended sooner but it is what it is. I hope they come after decoys harder in the future.
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I also agree with all of it, but I don't get the hate for hen decoys. I can see Jake or full strut decoys on public land. But if someone kills 2 birds and checks them in and ends their season they killed there limit and that's it. I am sorry but their are so many things that over time gives us an advantage over the animals we hunt. Between advancements in TSS, chokes, guns. How about we go to recurve bows and crossbows only. And you can only use slugs and muzzleloaders during deer season since shooting a deer at 300-400 yards doesn't take actual woodsmanship Heck honestly I have the skills to take my 300 Mag and the DOPE I have on it and can shoot one at 1000 meters. Occasionally I do use a hen decoy depending on the area I am hunting if it is large corn or bean fields with very little hardwoods. Sorry just because you don't use decoys don't judge others because trust me the knife cuts both ways and I guarantee there are things that are frowned upon that you may like.
 
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megalomaniac said:
If seasons are set properly (after majority of hens are bred), there is zero reason to have a limit (other than jealously from other hunters) on spring gobblers.. I never felt right about killing what the state was allowed back when limit was 4 but season opened 2 weeks before peak breeding... so I didn't. But now that season is pushed back until peak breeding, I wish they would have raised the limit back to 4. Less impact on the resource killing 4 toms after breeding than killing 2 before breeding.

The original considerations were to keep the limit at 3 adult gobblers, but the jake killers bitched and moaned about how folks NEED to kill jakes, so the compromise was made to drop the limit to 2 birds, but 1 could be a jake.


I've said before, there is ZERO biological reason to have ANY limits on adult toms IF they are killed after hens have been bred and ALL jakes are protected. We now have a hodgepodge regulation which allows for hens to be bred, jakes can be killed, but overall kill is reduced.
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I agree with you here. I dont like the date changes but i understand the reasoning and accept it. Limits should not have been changed. Self regulate. Seems there are some here that are really taking a liberal type point of view on the matter of if we dont have turkeys where i hunt ill scream the loudest and get it changed for everyone. Like the squeaky wheel and TWRA just throws a bunch of grease it and sees what sticks.....
 
JDUB said:
I agree with you here. I dont like the date changes but i understand the reasoning and accept it. Limits should not have been changed. Self regulate. Seems there are some here that are really taking a liberal type point of view on the matter of if we dont have turkeys where i hunt ill scream the loudest and get it changed for everyone. Like the squeaky wheel and TWRA just throws a bunch of grease it and sees what sticks.....
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Well... legitimately, populations in most parts of the state have declined significantly from their peak. A few spots that were restocked last haven't dropped off the cliff, but they would have just like everywhere else. It's just not a few 'squeaky wheels'... based on public input, turkey hunters provided about 20x the number of comments than all other hunters combined this year. The decline has become THAT pronounced over a majority of the state.

Similar to last year, but the commissions only change was delay season 2 weeks in the most affected counties and reduce limit from 4 to 3. The season delay was beneficial in those areas, but dropping the limit was a total waste and does NOTHING to sustain the population. Based on the volume of public input, the commission felt that they had to put forth much more radical changes this year, even if the reg changes don't work. They've now washed their hands of the matter and have a clean conscious. Will the changes make a difference? Who knows. But if the majority of folks want those changes, let them eat their cake... Personally, I can live with a 2 bird limit... I don't think it has to be that restrictive when the ultimate focus should be on recruitment of poults, however.

Just like the national elections... If the majority (80,000,000) legimately voted for Biden, I'm fine with him being president and the country being punished for incompetence and harmful policies. But of course that election was neither legitimate, nor did he truly receive the majority of legitimate votes. That's what hurts.

As far as relying on hunters to 'self regulate'... never has worked, never will work. Only a tiny fraction of hunters are able to do so... and unless you own 2500 contiguous acres, the birds on your property you choose to pass WILL be killed if there are competent or unethical hunters on neighboring properties.
 
cowhunter71 said:
Stick to fishing after you kill your unpressured Turkeys asshat
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If I was an asshat I would have spent the time to make this instead of ripping it off another site you were banned from lol
 
I have seen the changes of pushing start date later and dropping the limit to two birds work. It may take about three years but it will help. I also agree that TWRA should loosen restrictions on nest raiders and coyotes. Let us hunt coyotes at night. Where I hunt coyotes are a big problem because there is no night hunting and you are pretty much limited to shotgun or bow. No center fire rifles allowed.
 
megalomaniac said:
As far as relying on hunters to 'self regulate'... never has worked, never will work. Only a tiny fraction of hunters are able to do so... and unless you own 2500 contiguous acres, the birds on your property you choose to pass WILL be killed if there are competent or unethical hunters on neighboring properties.
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Correct, except based on my real-world observations, you actually need a lot more than 2500 contiguous acres. A whole lot more.

Also, many hunters actually feel they are "self-regulating" simply by killing the legal limit every year, as in they deserve a pat on the back for not killing birds illegally.

Rakkin6 said:
Sorry just because you don't use decoys don't judge others because trust me the knife cuts both ways and I guarantee there are things that are frowned upon that you may like.
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To a significant degree, I agree with Rakkin6.
While I do understand the disdain many traditional turkey hunters have towards the use of decoys, my thoughts have been tempered by coming to know they do not work anything at all as well as advertised and some seem to fear. Same can be said about turkey calls, as whether you're using a call or a decoy, other aspects of their usage may trump the fact that you're using either.

We should all try to answer what is the ethical difference between "attracting" a turkey with a call vs. "attracting" a turkey with a decoy?

Why is the question important?
Because the answer to it may ultimately be used against you when the majority of hunters see no difference; worse, it may be non-hunters controlling our turkey-hunting regulations.

Be careful for what you wish.

We can make a legitimate case for outlawing fanning based on safety.
We can make a legitimate case for delaying the season opening.
 
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megalomaniac said:
Well... legitimately, populations in most parts of the state have declined significantly from their peak. A few spots that were restocked last haven't dropped off the cliff, but they would have just like everywhere else. It's just not a few 'squeaky wheels'... based on public input, turkey hunters provided about 20x the number of comments than all other hunters combined this year. The decline has become THAT pronounced over a majority of the state.

Similar to last year, but the commissions only change was delay season 2 weeks in the most affected counties and reduce limit from 4 to 3. The season delay was beneficial in those areas, but dropping the limit was a total waste and does NOTHING to sustain the population. Based on the volume of public input, the commission felt that they had to put forth much more radical changes this year, even if the reg changes don't work. They've now washed their hands of the matter and have a clean conscious. Will the changes make a difference? Who knows. But if the majority of folks want those changes, let them eat their cake... Personally, I can live with a 2 bird limit... I don't think it has to be that restrictive when the ultimate focus should be on recruitment of poults, however.

Just like the national elections... If the majority (80,000,000) legimately voted for Biden, I'm fine with him being president and the country being punished for incompetence and harmful policies. But of course that election was neither legitimate, nor did he truly receive the majority of legitimate votes. That's what hurts.
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Pretty much the way every turkey population goes. Reintroduction, boom, slow fall, stabilize with peaks and valleys. However now the fluctuations are more extreme in some areas due to recruitment.

As far as turkey hunter comments, the following shows the # comments received recently:

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I wouldn't exactly call that a substantial number of comments/public input and representative of the entire state. Heck, the WMA fanning ban had more input than turkey limits!

Had the commission or TWRA taken the time and effort to spread awareness that they were seeking comments from all turkey hunters (e-mails, social media, etc), I suspect there would have been many more comments of varying opinions. Considering the commission took the newly adopted regulations a good bit further than TWRA biologist recommendations, this just goes to show the IMPORTANCE of public comment and participation when it comes to wildlife policy. In this case, politics and emotion overruled science.

How do we know the season delay was already beneficial with just 1 year of data? There would really need to be 3-5 years of data collected from the delayed openers. Then that data would need to be compared with the control (standard opener) to see if there was a significant difference in any metric (nesting data, recruitment, harvest fluctuations, etc).
 
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