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Big changes from the meeting today

th88 said:
Pretty much the way every turkey population goes. Reintroduction, boom, slow fall, stabilize with peaks and valleys. However now the fluctuations are more extreme in some areas due to recruitment.

As far as turkey hunter comments, the following shows the # comments received recently:

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I wouldn't exactly call that a substantial number of comments/public input and representative of the entire state. Heck, the WMA fanning ban had more input than turkey limits!

Had the commission or TWRA taken the time and effort to spread awareness that they were seeking comments from all turkey hunters (e-mails, social media, etc), I suspect there would have been many more comments of varying opinions. Considering the commission took the newly adopted regulations a good bit further than TWRA biologist recommendations, this just goes to show the IMPORTANCE of public comment and participation when it comes to wildlife policy. In this case, politics and emotion overruled science.

How do we know the season delay was already beneficial with just 1 year of data? There would really need to be 3-5 years of data collected from the delayed openers. Then that data would need to be compared with the control (standard opener) to see if there was a significant difference in any metric (nesting data, recruitment, harvest fluctuations, etc).
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I guess I was wrong... actually 98% of all the comments this year were about turkeys (as the furbearing comments were requests to remove predators to benefit turkeys). Look back at prior years... the commission has NEVER had this much pressure to act that I can recall.

I think much of the frustration from TN hunters came from the studies in southern middle TN which started 6 years ago.... which were supposed to be over 2 years ago. Which also were the excuse that no changes could be made to TNs season or harvest until the study was complete. Then the study was extended. All the while turkey populations declining.

Sometimes emotion does override 'no' science. Had results of the study been released, proved that all hens were bred (as was assumed) prior to season opening, I'm not sure there would have been a clamoring for a delay to season opening.

I'm all about science... that's what I do... but that's also why I've petitioned the commission and the turkey coordinator for the past 20 years (until I just gave up about 5 years ago and decided to just enjoy the year and not worry about the future in TN). Undisputed science says spring turkey seasons should never open before the majority of hens have been bred. Now sure, there are a few folks out there that think hens are having sex for fun months before ovulation, and then those hens store sperm for months, and have no need for males after March. They also think those hens won't ever mate again because there is no need for the rest of the entire calendar year. Some even think the hens will lay fertile eggs without any males. But what those folks believe in their hearts still doesn't change science. Female turkeys mate when they ovulate... which is around 7-10d before first egg is laid.

As far as limits, there really isn't any scientific justification for a 1, 2, 3, or 4 or more limit before limit was reduced. There is justification for no limit (again, IF all males are protected until after majority of hens are bred... after which, males are just superflous). But I don't really care about the limit. I'm fine with whatever.... because the limit itself has nothing to do with poult recruitment (as long as they are killed after hens are bred).

As it is, there was no opportunity taken away (same number of days to hunt), a minor hunting technique taken away (no reaping,gobbler decoys on public), and the only real loss was 1 tom. Commission could have been much more radical IMO.
 
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megalomaniac said:
I'm all about science...

As far as limits, there really isn't any scientific justification for a 1, 2, 3, or 4 or more limit before limit was reduced. There is justification for no limit (again, IF all males are protected until after majority of hens are bred... after which, males are just superflous). But I don't really care about the limit. I'm fine with whatever.... because the limit itself has nothing to do with poult recruitment (as long as they are killed after hens are bred).
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I agree with everything above said except the idea limits don't matter.
If we kill every 2-yr-old & older male AFTER breeding,
then we don't have anything older than 2 yr-old Toms in subsequent years.
The higher the limit, the fewer Toms in subsequent years.

I do agree that older Toms are not a requirement for sustaining turkey populations.
But we're not just trying to sustain them at present, we need to increase their numbers,
including the number of males, regardless of age, for next year.

Also, if we kill most the longbeards each year, the ratio of female to male birds gets worse, compromising breeding success. This becomes even more true following a single year of poor nesting success, in which there might be plenty of older hens, but not enough males to service them.

I'm all about math.
 
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Levee Jumper said:
View attachment 138747
If I was an asshat I would have spent the time to make this instead of ripping it off another site you were banned from lolI meant every f##king word of what I said on that site. Rudeness and ignorance will not be tolerated
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Levee Jumper said:
View attachment 138747
If I was an asshat I would have spent the time to make this instead of ripping it off another site you were banned from lol
Click to expand...
I meant every f#@king word of what I said on that site. We will not tolerate rudeness, as well as ignorance in South Cherokee. Spent 3 days in jail and had to pay 16 grand for doing that very thing back home. Would do again tomorrow if necessary ;)
 
I could be wrong but isn't that what the study that UT was doing for the past three or four years? So now that it has changed to a.leter opener and two bird limit we will need several years of study from this. I don't expect charges the first two years but I think year three will show some improvement.

But heck I could be wrong and numbers could go down. At the end of the day nobody beats mother nature. She is undefeated.
 
Going back and looking at the comments there is some vitriol going on. I understand that there are a lot of opinions on this, but let's remember that I think we all want what is in the best interest of the turkey population not only now but for the generations after us to enjoy. It seems that changes need to be made to make this happen. Well some of the changes we all will not like and some will think they are great but keeping the status quo will definitely help has I see it. We complain about TWRA not trying to help and then when they make changes (which in my opinion will be good) we still complain. Remember guys it's not about next season it's about 10 -15 years from now. We need to keep the macro picture in mind not the micro.
 
megalomaniac said:
the commission has NEVER had this much pressure to act that I can recall.

I think much of the frustration from TN hunters came from the studies in southern middle TN which started 6 years ago.... which were supposed to be over 2 years ago. Which also were the excuse that no changes could be made to TNs season or harvest until the study was complete. Then the study was extended. All the while turkey populations declining.

Sometimes emotion does override 'no' science. Had results of the study been released, proved that all hens were bred (as was assumed) prior to season opening, I'm not sure there would have been a clamoring for a delay to season opening.

I'm all about science... that's what I do... but that's also why I've petitioned the commission and the turkey coordinator for the past 20 years (until I just gave up about 5 years ago and decided to just enjoy the year and not worry about the future in TN). Undisputed science says spring turkey seasons should never open before the majority of hens have been bred. Now sure, there are a few folks out there that think hens are having sex for fun months before ovulation, and then those hens store sperm for months, and have no need for males after March. They also think those hens won't ever mate again because there is no need for the rest of the entire calendar year. Some even think the hens will lay fertile eggs without any males. But what those folks believe in their hearts still doesn't change science. Female turkeys mate when they ovulate... which is around 7-10d before first egg is laid.

As far as limits, there really isn't any scientific justification for a 1, 2, 3, or 4 or more limit before limit was reduced. There is justification for no limit (again, IF all males are protected until after majority of hens are bred... after which, males are just superflous). But I don't really care about the limit. I'm fine with whatever.... because the limit itself has nothing to do with poult recruitment (as long as they are killed after hens are bred).

As it is, there was no opportunity taken away (same number of days to hunt), a minor hunting technique taken away (no reaping,gobbler decoys on public), and the only real loss was 1 tom. Commission could have been much more radical IMO.
Click to expand...
I am very happy to see the public comments and engagement. A lot of eyes were opened as to how few public comments can affect the other 99.99% of hunters in the state.

That's one bad thing about academia. Many were asking for results/updates on the study but we never got to see much. The first couple years from the project (2017-18) were FINALLY published in 2022 and it still wasn't easy to find. We probably didn't hear much or see season-wide changes because those first few years actually didn't find anything vastly different in nesting metrics compared to the previous 50 years of research. And quite frankly, it isn't good "ammo" for the dominant gobbler theory. The way I look at it, it is just further evidence that the issue lies in getting those eggs successfully turned into 2-3 week old poults.

That 2 weeks of hunting lost when turkeys are gobbling decent, is definitely opportunity taken away in the opinion of many folks! Those extra 2 weeks on the end just don't make up for it. Days of opportunity get more birds killed than anything. If they wanted to save more gobblers, they could have left the limit three and not added those 2 weeks to the end.
 
th88 said:
I am very happy to see the public comments and engagement. A lot of eyes were opened as to how few public comments can affect the other 99.99% of hunters in the state.

That's one bad thing about academia. Many were asking for results/updates on the study but we never got to see much. The first couple years from the project (2017-18) were FINALLY published in 2022 and it still wasn't easy to find. We probably didn't hear much or see season-wide changes because those first few years actually didn't find anything vastly different in nesting metrics compared to the previous 50 years of research. And quite frankly, it isn't good "ammo" for the dominant gobbler theory. The way I look at it, it is just further evidence that the issue lies in getting those eggs successfully turned into 2-3 week old poults.

That 2 weeks of hunting lost when turkeys are gobbling decent, is definitely opportunity taken away in the opinion of many folks! Those extra 2 weeks on the end just don't make up for it. Days of opportunity get more birds killed than anything. If they wanted to save more gobblers, they could have left the limit three and not added those 2 weeks to the end.
Click to expand...
I totally agree with you, but the 2 bird limit doesn't bother me at all. Delaying the season 2 weeks but extending it through the biggest portion of May is ridiculous. Just make it a 2 or 3 week season with the 2 bird limit. My two cents worth on the matter and I've been chasing em 35yrs.
 
gobbler32 said:
I totally agree with you, but the 2 bird limit doesn't bother me at all. Delaying the season 2 weeks but extending it through the biggest portion of May is ridiculous. Just make it a 2 or 3 week season with the 2 bird limit. My two cents worth on the matter and I've been chasing em 35yrs.
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Been chasing them 45 years. Should have closed it middle of May as usual. Don't know why they think we have to have 45 day season.
 
Pretty simple for all those that don't understand the running it till end if may! They didnt want to listen to a bunch of full grown babies cry about opportunity being taken away, the same way they have from the duck a holics
 
20 years ago or so where I hunt. Southern Hardin county I would have ranked as good as anywhere. We had a 2 bird limit. Season opened last Saturday in March. It was unreal. Then they decided to mess with it. That is then things went south. Not rocket science. Do what used to work would b a good start. I'm totally against losing the first two weeks. Jmo. Jmo.
 
Well they cut the turkey limit from 4 to 3 to 2. Now I notice that some of the WMA (once a bonus deer) will be added to the statewide limit. When I started big game hunting in 1963 the limit was 1 deer, then it went to where you could kill a bunch of bucks, depending if you hunted all over the state. Now the buck limit is 2. Bonus deer practically eliminated. At this rate the limit is going to be 0. Are we making progress? Back to squirrel hunting I guess. Imo.
 

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