Setterman
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Anyone saying otherwise is either naive or just not well informed.
Im sure all these people killing henned up field turkeys would be just as successful without decoys. Lmao
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Im sure all these people killing henned up field turkeys would be just as successful without decoys. Lmao
This is what I'm hearing as well from turkey hunters and non turkey hunters. I know and understand that I personally have very little actual experience using decoys and I said so knowing I would get bashed for being uninformed. I'll take the heat, I'm ok with that. But to deny that decoys make it way easier for the unskilled and uncaring to kill turkeys (and lots of them) is to deny reality. I used the 25% thinking it to be actually be way higher than that.
If more turkey hunters and state agencies followed Mike Chamberlain and understood the dominant gobbler ladder, turkey populations would thrive.
I know a few guys that tag out every year with them. And they admit they couldn't do it without decoys. Most of the time it's during the first week. I get it, you enjoy using decoys and nothing is going to change your mind about them.
artwork001
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From my own experience the decoys haven't been a guarantee at all. Maybe I'm alone in not killing 3 birds every season but I haven't noticed the toms running into my decoys. I need every bit of help I can get if you think decoys are unethical don't use them. Simple.
artwork001
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Ps I'm not a biologist but I see turkeys already blown up with hens all around them so I assume breeding is already going on. There should be a study done to see if there is a massive slaughter of these dominant Toms and if it or something else is affecting the total population. The more we know the better.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I know a few guys that tag out every year, in multiple states, without decoys, much of the time within the first week of hunting any particular state.
As said previously, the only "decoy" I occasionally use is a sitting hen, and that's mainly for the benefit of providing more shooting opportunities once the bird has been called in. It's typically a set-up where the bird has to be under 30 yds before he even sees it.
About 15 yrs ago I experimented with the full-strut gobbler decoy. After 2 1/2 seasons of experimenting, I concluded that for me, it was more liability than asset. I've never said they don't work some of the time, it's just that they don't work anything like as well as some seem to think, as they seem clueless as to how many birds they may be losing in exchange for those that do come in.
No matter whether hen, jake, or full-strut decoy, many turkeys will just "putt" upon seeing it, then turn away. Others will come right to it. Overall just a wash to me.
I also have no problem with decoys being made illegal.
Just trying to point out we have bigger fish to fry, and would overall save more breeder Toms by opening the season a week later.
It's completely doable to tag out early without decoys. If you want to take the dominant bird hunt him after his hens leave to nest. Or stake out a full strut decoy like all the social media heros do. It's the dominant birds that the decoys work on. The same birds we want to protect early in the season. That's why Alabama is changing to no decoys first few days of the season.
That has been my experience also. Thank you for such a detailed explanation, and the sitting hen tip. Haven't tried that. The one thing that so far I haven't seen anyone address yet(haven't read all the way to the end of this thread), is that it seems that the unstated understanding is that hens, most or all, don't get bred if the dominant tom is taken. Is that true? Will they not get bred by satellite toms? Flocks where I hunt will have 2-3 dominant toms and sometimes 5-6 satellite toms early in the season, so perhaps that colors my view. This may be more of a problem where the numbers are lower, I could see that. But is there any research by wildlife biologists about unbred hens after the loss of the dominant bird(s)?How about we change the single tactic to single thing?
IMO, delaying the season opening by only 1 week would save more breeder Toms than anything to do with decoys, limits, or any methodology currently legal.
If the season is NOT open, no one is doing any of the "unethical" tactics?
Why are you so opposed to this?
Part of this issue is some have come to believe decoys are more effective than they really are. The issue is kinda like the old Bill Dance (and I love Bill Dance) fishing shows. He sometimes spent days on end trying to produce just enough video footage for his short fishing show, where he often only caught a half dozen bass on film. But then everyone would rush out to buy that "hot" lure they had just seen Bill Dance use to "tear them up" on TV.
It's not that decoys aren't extremely effective SOME of the time, but rather they're an overall liability as much or more of the time. We just don't see on TV all those times they not only don't work, but all those times decoys actually cost the users real opportunities the decoy use took away.
Most hunters don't even come close to realizing how many birds they "spook" just by placing & retrieving decoys. That's on top of the hunter typically making more unnatural sounds in the process of carrying & placing decoys. This causes many birds to simply fly off their roost going the other way, and the reason they never gobbled was because they saw or heard the person placing his decoy(s). All that on top of decoys just being something else to carry.
IMO, decoys are as much a gimmick as a crutch.
How do I know? Because over a decade ago I spent 2 1/2 seasons really experimenting with them.
They cost me more birds than they gained me.
That's just a fact.
For me, in 2 1/2 yrs, the "strutter" decoy only worked "as advertised" one time. I do admit none of my experiments were in big cattle pastures, but many were in 10-plus-acre hay fields. Many times, the strutter decoy just turned birds, some of which I would have killed had I not been using it. I finally stopped, in part because it just wasn't how I wanted to hunt (which is much like Setterman hunts), and because the decoys were costing me more than gaining me.
But I did learn one trick.
If I more or less "hide" a sitting hen decoy, then, AFTER I call up a Longbeard within range, he will often focus his attention on that sitting hen rather than be continuing to walk LOOKING for that hen. For that reason alone, I sometimes use this tactic mainly when I have a less experienced hunter with me, just so they can have more opportunity to get that perfect head shot, AND, see more up close strutting.
Again, the bird is called up to typically under 35 yds before he even sees the decoy.
If you try this tactic, you best be sure the Longbeard is within range before he sees it, because just as often, he will lock up at that moment, and come no closer. He may put on a great show, but he ends up walking away instead of closer. Same exact thing with the big stutter decoys, in that they repel as many or more than they attract. For me, strutter decoys would nearly always be more liability than asset.
Just open the season a week later, and we'll save more breeder birds, in part due to a lot less non-resident hunters coming to TN for no other reason than currently our season opens a week earlier than theirs.
So simple, and we have fewer hunters attacking other hunters for differences in opinion of how turkeys may be ethically hunted. We have similar conflict with duck hunters, only it may be just the opposite in that the decoy users think those not using decoys are hunting ducks unethicially.
Thank you! Amen.
Thanks for suggesting Chamberlain. I googled him and found the transcript of his presentation to the Alabama Conservation Advisory Board. Everyone on here should read it if you haven't already. Answered a lot of my questions. For one, it does make a difference if the dominant tom is killed, based on his research. Read to find out why. I am posting the link here. Clearly the thing to do, based on his research, is to back the starting date of the season up. Tennessee has already done so, one weekend later and maybe should move it another. Then it wouldn't matter whether decoys are used or not.
Start Turkey Season Later? Top Researcher Made Case To Alabama Advisory Board
Last August, Dr. Michael Chamberlain gave a detailed presentation to Alabama’s Conservation Advisory Board (CAB) explaining research that …
aonmag.com
Southern Sportsman
Well-Known Member
Thanks for suggesting Chamberlain. I googled him and found the transcript of his presentation to the Alabama Conservation Advisory Board. Everyone on here should read it if you haven't already. Answered a lot of my questions. For one, it does make a difference if the dominant tom is killed, based on his research. Read to find out why. I am posting the link here. Clearly the thing to do, based on his research, is to back the starting date of the season up. Tennessee has already done so, one weekend later and maybe should move it another. Then it wouldn't matter whether decoys are used or not.
Start Turkey Season Later? Top Researcher Made Case To Alabama Advisory Board
Last August, Dr. Michael Chamberlain gave a detailed presentation to Alabama’s Conservation Advisory Board (CAB) explaining research that …
Thank you for posting the link. I knew he gave a presentation but I did not know a transcript was available.
But FYI - Tennessee has not moved the starting date back except for the 4 middle TN research counties and the 5 MS River border counties.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Actually, it only "appears" Tennessee may be opening turkey season a little later this year.
(Exception noted for some "research" counties & those 5 MS River border counties.)
For many, many years, the TN turkey season has opened on the Saturday closest to April 1st, which this year just happens to be April 3.
About half the time, this means our TN turkey season opens in March.
Many our other TN seasons open ongoing on a more defined Saturday, such as the 3rd or 4th Saturday of a particular month (squirrel, deer, etc.).
I would love to see TN's turkey season ongoing open on the 2nd Saturday of April. That would ongoing mean it opens about a week later than it's been opening, on average.
And, if our season opened about a week later, we would lose fewer birds to corn-baiting, which appears to be much less effective (as are decoys) once the average daily temps increase and there's more Spring "Green-Up".
IMO, we lose more birds to corn-baiting now than we lose to strutter decoys, in both cases, more an issue BEFORE spring green-up.
Thanks for suggesting Chamberlain. I googled him and found the transcript of his presentation to the Alabama Conservation Advisory Board. Everyone on here should read it if you haven't already. Answered a lot of my questions. For one, it does make a difference if the dominant tom is killed, based on his research. Read to find out why. I am posting the link here. Clearly the thing to do, based on his research, is to back the starting date of the season up. Tennessee has already done so, one weekend later and maybe should move it another. Then it wouldn't matter whether decoys are used or not.
Start Turkey Season Later? Top Researcher Made Case To Alabama Advisory Board
Last August, Dr. Michael Chamberlain gave a detailed presentation to Alabama’s Conservation Advisory Board (CAB) explaining research that …
Then why isn't he making his research available? That's the sole reason why the ALABAMA hunter's aren't buying the "dominant gobbler" theory.
Southern Sportsman
Well-Known Member
He makes more information and data available than anyone. I think studies are ongoing and I'm certain scholarly article(s) is/are currently being written by by some of Chamberlain's PhD students.
IMO, the sentiment of angry Alabama turkey hunters is a poor gauge by which to measure the validity of scientific research and recommendations.
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megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Most hunters don't understand rudimentary turkey biology. They have a few chickens in the yard and assume turkeys must mate just like chickens. Most turkey hunters think if you kill the boss tom, the satellite birds will start jackhammering every hen in a 5 mile radius as soon as the dominant bird stops flopping.
Turkeys just don't breed that way. The HEN chooses which male is the fittest, and sets for him. Male turkeys don't force themselves on top of the ladies like other poultry species.
You don't need 'research' to prove this. It's just simple turkey behavior. Even someone with an elementary education can observe it if they spend enough time with turkeys.
It's like saying I need 'research' to know the sun rises and sets.
Hence the effectiveness of strutter decoys on those dominate birds in fields. And also explains why the use of decoys could easily effect the population a lot. Even if outlawing decoys didn't help the population I still think they should be outlawed. When I take new hunters with me (which is a LOT) they almost always say "why not just use a decoy?" By the end of a morning of climbing hills and hollers, crawling through thickets, walking through creeks, freezing before dark and sweating like crazy by 8am, etc, at least half never want to go hunting again, but the other half are hooked. Their character and physical ability have been challenged. Their decision making skills have been enhanced. They have learned a lot about turkeys, the woods and the environment. Some will still say at the end "we coulda just sat by the field with a decoy." Those aren't hunters.
Rancocas
Well-Known Member
I like most of the responses I'm seeing here, but I certainly would also like to see this same logic applied to other hunting methods.
I've been hunting for over 60 years and I do not like some of the modern trends.
IMO taking a big game animal from 400+ yards is NOT hunting. It is merely sniping.
On another note, I am a traditional muzzleloader. I use both percussion and flintlock, but my firearms are copies of ones that were available before the mid 1800's. IMO in-lines usurped and ruined the original intent of muzzleloader hunting seasons. ("in-line" when used in the context of a muzzleloading firearm is one of the foulest words I know!)
So, will there be a trend back to the simpler days of hunting, when you actually had to "hunt"?
Okay, rant over. ():~)
I've been hunting for over 60 years and I do not like some of the modern trends.
IMO taking a big game animal from 400+ yards is NOT hunting. It is merely sniping.
On another note, I am a traditional muzzleloader. I use both percussion and flintlock, but my firearms are copies of ones that were available before the mid 1800's. IMO in-lines usurped and ruined the original intent of muzzleloader hunting seasons. ("in-line" when used in the context of a muzzleloading firearm is one of the foulest words I know!)
So, will there be a trend back to the simpler days of hunting, when you actually had to "hunt"?
Okay, rant over. ():~)
Today's muzzleloaders are nothing less than a single shot rifle. I would say the comparison of shooting a deer at 400 yards and using a turkey decoy is a bit different. Using a decoy while shooting with a bow is hugely different than using a shotgun. There is practically zero skill is shooting a turkeys head with a shotgun at 30 yards. There is skill in shooting a deer at 400...I can barely hit vitals at 100 myself
