BSK and others. What in doe urine tells a buck she

[HOOK]

At my place....when a doe walks up to a buck and says...catch me if you can.....That means it's on.

 

[BSK]

Wow thats interesting. What do you think they see when they see a doe decoy?

I've seen far more negative reactions to doe decoys than positive.

 

[BSK]

That is an interesting study and didnt know that was tested. I cerainly believe them looking at a doe "giving them the eye", that they would make a move towards them. Have you ever had a doe come by you knowing that there was a buck behind her? I certainly have. It could be 30 seconds, or an hour. It's just a sense of reading their body language. Sometimes its easy and sometimes we have no clue. Thats what "they" know and can read. This is where paying attention to detail could possibly pay off. Obviously it is more visible to them and not to us, BUT this is definitely interesting. Just saying there are probably a few clues that could trigger our eyes to recognizing an estrous doe. I have seen certain things that are kind of "off" with a doe passing through and there always seems to be a buck behind them at some point. Though sometimes, we are wrong, but who knows, she may be hot and there just happens to be nothing trailing her. This is when I see the does modify their ranges to a smaller tract of land. When I see one that I think is hot, I try to stay in that general area that has the highest probability of travel....aka - funnels or travel corridors

Without question there are certain "behaviors" that are common to an estrus doe. A doe entering estrus will shrink her range dramatically and become highly active, moving round and round in a small area constantly. If I see an "agitated" doe come through an area multiple times in a single hunt, I suspect she is entering estrus.

However, "what bucks are seeing" that alerts them to a doe's estrus status is probably far more complex than that.

 

[Andy S.]

I've seen far more negative reactions to doe decoys than positive.

What states? The reason I ask is guys I know who hunt in Kansas (where they claim deer are A LOT more visual), praise them for certain applications. I have no experience with them in any state.

 

[BSK]

I've seen far more negative reactions to doe decoys than positive.

What states? The reason I ask is guys I know who hunt in Kansas (where they claim deer are A LOT more visual), praise them for certain applications. I have no experience with them in any state.

The Southeast.

Now there is no telling what a rut-crazed buck will do, and I have seen some positive results, but I've sure seen a lot of deer (both bucks and does) run like crazy when they see a deer decoy (both buck and doe decoys). In essence, I have seen positive responses, but I've seen more negative responses than positive responses.

It all goes back to the discussions of whether this call or that call, or this scent or that scent, "really works." Sure, just about any attractant will work occassionally. But how often do attractants produce a negative response? Hunters who rave about a particular attractant never want to talk about the 10 times an attractant spooked deer, only the 1 time it actually attracted a deer.

 

[Football Hunter]

Wow thats interesting. What do you think they see when they see a doe decoy?

I've seen far more negative reactions to doe decoys than positive.

I have only ever seen "positve" reactions to BUCK decoys,I guess they see them as a challenge?Little bucks may run off,but have seen a few "big bucks" come in to see whats up.Nothing from doe decoys.

 

[BSK]

In this experiment which direction was the doe facing when the buck approached?

She could have been facing any direction. The does were held in glassed-in pens and were free to move around.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

In this experiment which direction was the doe facing when the buck approached?

She could have been facing any direction. The does were held in glassed-in pens and were free to move around.

One of the does probably weighed significantly more than the other. Could have altered the bucks decision

 

[BSK]

In this experiment which direction was the doe facing when the buck approached?

She could have been facing any direction. The does were held in glassed-in pens and were free to move around.

One of the does probably weighed significantly more than the other. Could have altered the bucks decision

These experiments were run over and over again with different combinations of does of all ages and bucks of all ages. The bucks were not quite as good at picking out the estrus does by sight as by scent, but by just sight, the bucks did get it right the majority of the time (70% if I remember the study numbers correctly).

 

[redblood]

I really think you are overestimating the visual effect. in our business, we have to recognize ovulation in all our breeding dogs. Since our breedingS take place with frozen semen, proper ovulation timing is crucial. contrary to popular belief, peak fertility in all mammals (deer included)takes place 2-4 days after ovulation. Time which the egg ripens and is available for penetration by the sperm cell. Through testing the LH and progesterone levels during estrous (to pinpont ovulation) and compare that to a breeding males response (we use a intact male as indicator of ovualtion, he is not allowed to breed the female), In almost every circumstance, the time the male has the strongest attraction to the female correlates directly with ovulation. Is the male attracted to her visual cues: possibly. Is it as strong as the olfactory indicators. Absolutely not. Even when the estrous females are enclosed within a structure, male strays line up along the perimeters of our fences. They have not laid eyes on the female in estrous, yet still responds to the estrous. No different in the registered Simmental Cattle we raised. even though we A.I.'D everything an did not own a bull, bulls would occassionally show up from farms down the rd, well out of eye shot. I am not saying there is no visible factor in heat detection in deer. But, judging by other mammals, i would say it is very small

 

[Andy S.]

......contrary to popular belief, peak fertility in all mammals (deer included)takes place 2-4 days after ovulation.

All mammals? I have been told by several doctors that women's peak fertility is days just before ovulation and during ovulation.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

In this experiment which direction was the doe facing when the buck approached?

She could have been facing any direction. The does were held in glassed-in pens and were free to move around.

One of the does probably weighed significantly more than the other. Could have altered the bucks decision

These experiments were run over and over again with different combinations of does of all ages and bucks of all ages. The bucks were not quite as good at picking out the estrus does by sight as by scent, but by just sight, the bucks did get it right the majority of the time (70% if I remember the study numbers correctly).

After writing this in a joking manner, I realized it had some merit

 

[redblood]

......contrary to popular belief, peak fertility in all mammals (deer included)takes place 2-4 days after ovulation.

All mammals? I have been told by several doctors that women's peak fertility is days just before ovulation and during ovulation.

yes all mammals. note that peak fertility and peak conception times are different. the example i gave, were for A.I. breedings using frozen or chilled sperm. the chilling process greatly reduces the motility and mobility of the sperm. therefore it will not last long within the uterus. therefore the egg must be ready to be fertilized upon the sperms arrival, as they will not last much longer. in healthy humans and animals where natural matings will produce sperm that has not ben compromised, slightly before ovulation or at the time ovulation is desired because the sperm have the viability to last within the uterus until the egg is ready to be fertilized. Before you could buy sexed semen (a straw of semen that would produce a specified sex offspring), farmers would try to breed cattle earlier in the heat cycle if they desired female offspring or later in the heat cycle (post ovulation) if they desired male offspring. the concept behind it was that the female sperm cell (x) used its energy base slower so they would remain viable for a longer time, allowing a higher concentrataion of viable sperm within the uterus when the egg was ready to be fertilized. The male sperm cell (y) was faster, which means it uses its energy reserved more quickly. The results of this type of breeding schedule was somewhat successful for us in cattle, and it is a concept we now employ with our English White Lab Breeding program.

 

[redblood]

here is an example of our current litter- 8 female and 2 males. our waiting list for a female is about 12-15 months. our waiting list for a male is about 6 months. to help balance out this, we A.I.'d this female a single time when her progesterone level was at 3.5 ng. most dogs ovulate between 5-8 ng. by her whelping date she was bred 2.5 days before ovulation. was it just coincidence. maybe. but 80% out of a litter this size is impressive.

 

[Andy S.]

Good info redblood, thanks for sharing. I cannot wait to tell my doctor buddies they are disseminating misinformation. J/K :grin:

 

[BSK]

I really think you are overestimating the visual effect. in our business, we have to recognize ovulation in all our breeding dogs. Since our breedingS take place with frozen semen, proper ovulation timing is crucial. contrary to popular belief, peak fertility in all mammals (deer included)takes place 2-4 days after ovulation. Time which the egg ripens and is available for penetration by the sperm cell. Through testing the LH and progesterone levels during estrous (to pinpont ovulation) and compare that to a breeding males response (we use a intact male as indicator of ovualtion, he is not allowed to breed the female), In almost every circumstance, the time the male has the strongest attraction to the female correlates directly with ovulation. Is the male attracted to her visual cues: possibly. Is it as strong as the olfactory indicators. Absolutely not. Even when the estrous females are enclosed within a structure, male strays line up along the perimeters of our fences. They have not laid eyes on the female in estrous, yet still responds to the estrous. No different in the registered Simmental Cattle we raised. even though we A.I.'D everything an did not own a bull, bulls would occassionally show up from farms down the rd, well out of eye shot. I am not saying there is no visible factor in heat detection in deer. But, judging by other mammals, i would say it is very small

I'm only stating would studies have shown. A buck that could not possibly smell either doe (the bucks nasal passages had been cauterized to prevent any sense of smell, and the does were held in air-tight pens) were still able to choose the doe in estrus around 70% of the time. That's strong indication bucks can visually identify a doe in estrus versus one that is not.

 

[redblood]

I really think you are overestimating the visual effect. in our business, we have to recognize ovulation in all our breeding dogs. Since our breedingS take place with frozen semen, proper ovulation timing is crucial. contrary to popular belief, peak fertility in all mammals (deer included)takes place 2-4 days after ovulation. Time which the egg ripens and is available for penetration by the sperm cell. Through testing the LH and progesterone levels during estrous (to pinpont ovulation) and compare that to a breeding males response (we use a intact male as indicator of ovualtion, he is not allowed to breed the female), In almost every circumstance, the time the male has the strongest attraction to the female correlates directly with ovulation. Is the male attracted to her visual cues: possibly. Is it as strong as the olfactory indicators. Absolutely not. Even when the estrous females are enclosed within a structure, male strays line up along the perimeters of our fences. They have not laid eyes on the female in estrous, yet still responds to the estrous. No different in the registered Simmental Cattle we raised. even though we A.I.'D everything an did not own a bull, bulls would occassionally show up from farms down the rd, well out of eye shot. I am not saying there is no visible factor in heat detection in deer. But, judging by other mammals, i would say it is very small

I'm only stating would studies have shown. A buck that could not possibly smell either doe (the bucks nasal passages had been cauterized to prevent any sense of smell, and the does were held in air-tight pens) were still able to choose the doe in estrus around 70% of the time. That's strong indication bucks can visually identify a doe in estrus versus one that is not.

but are you saying that the visual aspect of sexual attraction in deer is stronger than the olfactory aspect?

 

[bowriter]

After literally thousands of hours of watching deer under wild conditions, (bow hunting forces you do that), I am completely convinced I can recognize a doe almost in heat, a doe in heat and a doe just out of heat within a few minutes of observation.

If I can do it, I feel quite confident a buck can do it.

On more than a few occasions, this has kept me from shooting a doe and getting ready for the hyper swain in tow. And, on more than a few of those occasions, I have been able to sidetrack said swain just enough to invade his victuals with an arrow or bouyette.

 

[BSK]

but are you saying that the visual aspect of sexual attraction in deer is stronger than the olfactory aspect?

NO!!! Bucks that were allowed to choose does using just their sense of smell (totally black-dark conditions--the bucks could not see the does but air was being blown over the does to the buck) got the estrus choice right virtually every time. The ability of bucks to choose estus over non-estrus does only by sight was just an interesting and unexpected finding.

The nose is always going to be #1, but it isn't the only sense they use.

 

[redblood]

but are you saying that the visual aspect of sexual attraction in deer is stronger than the olfactory aspect?

NO!!! Bucks that were allowed to choose does using just their sense of smell (totally black-dark conditions--the bucks could not see the does but air was being blown over the does to the buck) got the estrus choice right virtually every time. The ability of bucks to choose estus over non-estrus does only by sight was just an interesting and unexpected finding.

The nose is always going to be #1, but it isn't the only sense they use.

OK. I agree then. i remember taken a graduate level animal science class and the teacher said that females riding other females when one was in estrous was not from confusion or play, but rather a visable cue to the dominant male that a female was receptive for breeding. I have witnessed this in deer as well, unfortunately without a dominant male responding to the cue. Thoughts?