Dumbluck - doe harvests

[hammer33]

One of the biggest challenges for small property owners is "what are you really managing?"
If deer have a typical 1 mile radius home range, and you have 30 acres, is your management plan actually good? Bad? Ineffective? How do you know?

 

[Bone_Chaser]

It is amazing with only antlered deer being allowed to be taken that you are seeing so many more bucks than does. Do you think they need to increase the number of hunts?

I typed that backwards. 15-1 doe to buck was our observation among 7 hunters over 4 years.

My suggestion would be antler restrictions 12" spread or 4 on one side and allow antlerless harvest other than archery/youth for a year or two to balance the herd and then reevaluate. From what I saw in 4 years an anterless only hunt was necessary but without any restrictions irrelevant.

I feel like the majority of hunters don't dream of killing a spike or fork horn these days. If 30-40 hunters could take a 2.5+ year old buck it would be a much better hunt. It's unit 6 and never going to produce pope and young caliber bucks on the regular as a public hunt but if hunters had a legitimate opportunity at anything decent it would be worth it for those of us who hunt in east TN and don't have access to many opportunities.

It also has the unique advantage of being land locked 97% unless deer decide to swim the lake and is massive. There are plenty of deer there. I've hunted several quotas in Kentucky and Tennessee and as far as sightings it was number 1. I saw 1 decent buck scouting I would have shot in 4 years.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Correct. You want to conduct habitat browse analyses at the lowest food resource time of year, which is usually late February and early March.

Appreciate it...and I understand looking for a browse line....I guess I was wondering if there was a particular type of food source that you are focusing on? And are you looking at things which deer normally dont prefer to eat as an indicator as well?

We dont currently have an obvious high browse line..so I'm trying to learn other, more specific things to be watching for.

I guess an easier way to ask the question is: Are there certain plants you always include in your late winter browse analysis?

 

[DoubleRidge]

.....are you looking at things which deer normally dont prefer to eat as an indicator as well?

I guess an easier way to ask the question is: Are there certain plants you always include in your late winter browse analysis?

guess not? Lol!

 

[Dumbluck]

figuring out what the hunters on the property actually want instead of what they say they want.

This whole post is awesome, thanks. But this section made me laugh. I'm a building science expert and consultant. I deal with this daily, builders will say they want their homes to be "certified" in a certain program or a custom built program and really at the end of the day 99% of them want a piece of paper that says they build to stringent programs without building to stringent programs.

I was hoping hunters would be different and you could referee for me. .

I do know that people saying they want trophy management with high hunter numbers certainly can not shoot any bucks under 4, and shooting a plethora of does on a herd under the carrying capacity of the land can't be beneficial. We would need the deer numbers high as possible just to have a decent number of bucks over 4.

 

[hbg1]

This is good news for me I suppose. My doe numbers are incredibly high but mennonites have recently moved in and it's like a war zone around me. Does are using their hooves to bring the food to their mouth so they can keep their eyes up looking for hunters

 

[BSK]

I do know that people saying they want trophy management with high hunter numbers certainly can not shoot any bucks under 4, and shooting a plethora of does on a herd under the carrying capacity of the land can't be beneficial. We would need the deer numbers high as possible just to have a decent number of bucks over 4.

It's a Catch 22 isn't it? A low-density herd will produce the highest quality per age-class. Yet at the same time there will be less total number of those high-quality mature animals.

Personally, we've got our herd at the highest density we've ever had, because we have the food to support them. And we're thoroughly enjoying it! Much more fun hunting. Now, the trick will be keeping that food production at such a high level that we can maintain this higher deer density into the future.

 

[tellico4x4]

difficult aspect of all when it comes to population density management is figuring out what the hunters on the property actually want instead of what they say they want. I don't think I've ever been contacted by a new client who didn't say the hunters want to see and kill bigger bucks. Who doesn't want that? And most will say they will do anything to grow bigger bucks. Well heck, I can design a plan that will do that! But it will entail keeping the deer density well below maximum capacity. "No problem!" the hunters will say. Until they experience that kind of hunting, and they are far less than satisfied.

After managing for 3+ bucks for 12 yrs at our place, several folks started making noise about want to take it up a notch. What I did was put together a questionnaire regarding the "importance" of 25 items of our club, with each item ranked from 1 thru 5. It mostly focused on hunting but included things like socialization, bring pets to camp, dues, to what time generators were turned off each night, so was fairly broad.

Once those were received I changed the questionnaire name from "importance" to "satisfaction" and had them answer the exact same questions from that aspect. I took the top 10 items with the biggest delta between importance and satisfaction, and presented them to our board. We addressed each and made changes accordingly.

We moved from managing for 3+ to 4+ and started sending all buck teeth out for cementum age testing. While vast majority were happy with the changes, we had one long term member who got really pissed and told me that "if he had known what we were doing, he'd answered his questions differently". In other words, he would have lied.

Getting a feel for what a group of hunters REALLY want out of their hunting experience, and managing towards that goal takes constant adjustment.

We adjust doe killing each year based on camera survey and hunter observation log. 2023 season was our 3rd year of sending teeth off, so we compared results for the 3 year period against our minimum buck restrictions and made a few tweaks to them. We will review that criteria every 3 years as well.

4) And the most complicated of all - deciphering what the hunters really want instead of what they say they want. THIS is the toughest part of successful private land management.

Fully agree! It took me half of my working career to learn the 90/10 rule when dealing with people.

You can usually please 90% the majority of the time, but the other 10% may very well take up 90% of your effort, and you'll never satisfy all of them. In reality, at the end of the year that 10% really doesn't matter.

As I get older and becoming a crudegy old fart, that number is about 60/40 now

 

[DoubleRidge]

I guess an easier way to ask the question is: Are there certain plants you always include in your late winter browse analysis?

Found article online that speaks to the question presented...I guess this information is obvious to many but it may be helpful for those who have questions. Knowing specific things to look for verses guessing or wandering during a late winter browse analysis may be helpful. Comments from article below:

"To gauge relative deer density on your property examine browse during the late winter when food is most limited, and evidence of deer use is most obvious.
If every greenbrier or honeysuckle vine is heavily browsed, you likely need to harvest more deer, create more food, or both".

Other specific plants mentioned in the article that could be considered:

"poison ivy, dewberry, American beauty berry, blackberry and blackgum".

Creating more food and maintaining the food we currently have fits our management plan more so than hammering all the does...interesing thread.

 

[Tn_Va_Hunter]

I own 34 acres. Of the 4 adjoining properties, 3 are private land that virtually sees no hunting pressure. The other is back up to national Forrest that is hunted year round. The first few years I hunted my new place hard. To this day I have not killed a decent buck off it (8 years). But I have also eased the pressure waaaaaaay back. It gets hunted youth weekend and about ML to end of rifle. The mature bucks have leaned over the last 4 years it's a relatively safe place. My son has killed a 150'inch 10 and 3 dang nice 8 points and my daughter killed a very nice 8 this year as well. I've not hunted my own place but 2 times this year. My BIL killed his best buck to date 125 inch 8' point in one hunt there this year.

I do what I can for the place. Planted many apple, chestnut, sawtooth, peach, pear, crabapple and food plots.

I tend to hunt the back side of my wife's family land that sees a lot of pressure from the neighbors and let them run deer to me. But I'm at the age that I'd rather see my kids or family kill a decent buck more than me. I think, for me, planting of the trees and seeing the farm change and take shape is much more enjoyable in the end when my kids are successful. Planting and growing trees have became one of my favorite hobbies.

The national Forrest gets a ton of pressure. But there is areas hunters has to really work to get into that the deer use to take cover and hide. And the majority don't wanna walk that far or work for it because of the steep terrain. I've learned letting some areas of the fields grow to about 4-6 feet towards end of the year also makes the deer more comfortable in crossing the fields. So with my 2 shooting houses I have areas that are mowed down and grown up while watching plots. It seems to help a lot.

 

[megalomaniac]

The biggest problem is 99% of hunters and 90% of state biologists don't recognize that doe harvest SHOULD be completely fluid from year to year. They don't see the big picture... long term trends in habitat degradation on leased lands, and even some lands owned by hunters (not necessarily from overcrowding, but just maturation of early successional regrowth, and also maturation of timber over time).

In my case, cattle density and cattle rotation patterns, timing of planting of fall cover crops, and particularly coyote densities WILDLY fluctuate reproduction rates and success.

My doe harvest rates vary wildly from year to year. Mostly dependent on fawn recruitment and doe weights.

But at the same time, I'm constantly improving habitat and minimizing stress on the deer, but at the same time making for FUN hunts for friends and kids.

This morn, my daughters boyfriend watched 15 different bucks come by his stand that only covers a small area. None were shooters, but he had a blast.

Balancing healthy numbers of deer with antler scores is what i strive for. Plenty of deer sightings with 130 class harvests the norm, and an occasional 150 class buck is fine by me.

Most critical single statistic... doe weights... if your 2.5 and older does are averaging less than 110lbs... kill more does or improve habitat. 110 to 120... you are doing OK, expect mature bucks to average 115 or so. Get your average doe weights up to 130 or 140lbs (either through habitat improvements or population reduction), and expect to see average 4.5yos scoring 135

 

[BSK]

In my case, cattle density and cattle rotation patterns, timing of planting of fall cover crops, and particularly coyote densities WILDLY fluctuate reproduction rates and success.

My doe harvest rates vary wildly from year to year. Mostly dependent on fawn recruitment and doe weights.

You aren't kidding about fluctuating fawn recruitment rates. Normally, when I see wildly fluctuating data from year to year, I consider that a problem of small data sets (too small of sample sizes). Yet my fawn recruitment rates are based on 10,000+ data points each year. That's way more than necessary to get solid data. These major fluctuations are real instead of a product of small data sets. And as you can see in the data below, we see some major changes from year to year. Exactly why is the question. In the below data, the big dip in fawn recruitment around 2018-19 is easy to explain - that was the point where we had the lowest amount of cover on the property. But some of the other major bumps and dips are a mystery.

 

[DoubleRidge]

You aren't kidding about fluctuating fawn recruitment rates. Normally, when I see wildly fluctuating data from year to year, I consider that a problem of small data sets (too small of sample sizes). Yet my fawn recruitment rates are based on 10,000+ data points each year. That's way more than necessary to get solid data. These major fluctuations are real instead of a product of small data sets. And as you can see in the data below, we see some major changes from year to year. Exactly why is the question. In the below data, the big dip in fawn recruitment around 2018-19 is easy to explain - that was the point where we had the lowest amount of cover on the property. But some of the other major bumps and dips are a mystery.

Not sure how one would collect the data points but I would love to see coyote population trends year to year laid over your fawn recruitment graph.
I say this because year to year, with doing little to nothing (other than work on habitat) the coyote numbers in our area seem cyclical...for example, last year I'm not sure I saw a single coyote..This year I've only seen two or three coyotes all season...but some years we see atleast one every other hunt? No doubt habitat improvements have an influence...Just wonder what part cyclical coyote numbers play?

 

[BSK]

Not sure how one would collect the data points but I would love to see coyote population trends year to year laid over your fawn recruitment graph.
I say this because year to year, with doing little to nothing (other than work on habitat) the coyote numbers in our area seem cyclical...for example, last year I'm not sure I saw a single coyote..This year I've only seen two or three coyotes all season...but some years we see atleast one every other hunt? No doubt habitat improvements have an influence...Just wonder what part cyclical coyote numbers play?

I've often seen coyote populations blamed for the low fawn recruitment being seen across the Southeast for the last decade and a half. I'm not sure I buy it as the primary factor. When we bought our place in '87, it was crawling with yotes. We would hear packs howling every night. It's still packed with yotes. We never see them in daylight but I get hundreds of pics and videos of them on trail-cam. I absolutely believe they are having an impact (almost every year I get a picture of a yote with a fawn in its mouth), but I don't understand how we could have fawn recruitment of 120% back in the early years, with lots of yotes, but now struggle to keep it near 50%.

 

[dgolden]

Lots of good information in this post. Thanks BSK!
We're planning on shooting several does in the next few weeks on our 250 acres.
Just from our deer sightings this year, we see about 1 buck to every 10 does.
3 hunters were on stand this past Sunday afternoon. We saw a total of 30 does and 4 bucks. 1 buck was taken.

 

[DoubleRidge]

I've often seen coyote populations blamed for the low fawn recruitment being seen across the Southeast for the last decade and a half. I'm not sure I buy it as the primary factor. When we bought our place in '87, it was crawling with yotes. We would hear packs howling every night. It's still packed with yotes. We never see them in daylight but I get hundreds of pics and videos of them on trail-cam. I absolutely believe they are having an impact (almost every year I get a picture of a yote with a fawn in its mouth), but I don't understand how we could have fawn recruitment of 120% back in the early years, with lots of yotes, but now struggle to keep it near 50%.

Interesting...agree, I dont believe the coyote is the primary factor but more likely just a piece of the puzzle and no doubt habitat, with quality fawning cover, clearly has an impact.
Since our 2019 TSI project I have no doubt our numbers have increased....But with the TSI project there are so many variables that can contribute to an increase in recruitment numbers...from better fawning cover to increased nutrition from all the browse created, then releasing oaks for better acorn production...all contributing to mamas health...interesing to study on.

 

[megalomaniac]

I've often seen coyote populations blamed for the low fawn recruitment being seen across the Southeast for the last decade and a half. I'm not sure I buy it as the primary factor. When we bought our place in '87, it was crawling with yotes. We would hear packs howling every night. It's still packed with yotes. We never see them in daylight but I get hundreds of pics and videos of them on trail-cam. I absolutely believe they are having an impact (almost every year I get a picture of a yote with a fawn in its mouth), but I don't understand how we could have fawn recruitment of 120% back in the early years, with lots of yotes, but now struggle to keep it near 50%.

It depends on the local coyote population what they are keyed on as primary food sources.

On my TN farms, they routinely hunt (and kill on occasion) healthy adult deer. When they coyote population exploded, my fawn recruitment rate dropped to 10 to 15%. For that reason, we went a decade without shooting does, where before that, we shot 20 to 25 a year.

After the great distemper outbreak 2.5 years ago, all the coyotes were wiped out for over 6 months. And since then, we have been actively calling any new ones in that show up on camera.

Fawn recruitment was a bit over 50% last year. And i have never seen so many 1.5 and 2.5yo bucks as this year. It's normal to see 5 or 6 bucks per hunt this year, but we have had a couple hunts where 15 unique bucks were seen on a single sit... the vast majority 1.5yos