Harvest numbers don't reflect the season

[woodsman87]

Those 20 gobblers you see on one farm in Giles county in deer season are probably 5% of the entire gobbler population on one area. Just because there are 20 gobblers on one place doesn't mean there are 20 more 10 miles away, especially during December when they are all bunched up.

Giles county is falling behind, whether you agree or not. I have been around for too long, and no matter what the biologist say, it's still spiraling downward.
This has been the worst turkey season in Giles and Lincoln county for me my entire hunting career.

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[Mike Belt]

It's been said several times already but if you want to improve bird numbers 1) reduce the limit and 2) quit shooting hens. It can't get any simpler than that. For those who complain about the decline and keep killing 4 birds each spring, no matter if you hunt different properties, you are part of the problem and none of the solution unless you consider complaining a solution. I don't know so much about decoying and fanning as the cause for the decline even if they help some kill their birds. They're simply hunting tools and not a guarantee for killing a bird.

 

[arkwaterfowler]

Just stating a fact and not arguing the decline. This was our best season since I started in 1995.

 

[Setterman]

It's been said several times already but if you want to improve bird numbers 1) reduce the limit and 2) quit shooting hens. It can't get any simpler than that. For those who complain about the decline and keep killing 4 birds each spring, no matter if you hunt different properties, you are part of the problem and none of the solution unless you consider complaining a solution. I don't know so much about decoying and fanning as the cause for the decline even if they help some kill their birds. They're simply hunting tools and not a guarantee for killing a bird.

I don't agree on the decoys as the Hunter who has no idea how to call, how to set up, how to effectively hunt field turkeys etc has almost no chance to kill the same bird he does by waddling out and sticking a strutter in the ground and waiting for a dominant bird to just see it and run in to die. That takes zero skill, and the numbers of birds dying by this and other easy lay up tactics is in the thousands upon thousands.

As I said earlier I bet half our kill total involved decoys or fanning, maybe more.

I agree lower the limit to 2, no hens ever, 1 jake, and consider outlawing decoys and fanning.

 

[Andy S.]

This was our best season since I started in 1995.

Congrats to you and your crew. What county(s) were you all hunting, if you are at liberty to share?

 

[arkwaterfowler]

Montgomery county

 

[Roost 1]

I'm one of the ones that feel fanning, decoys, and blinds are causing more turkeys to get killed then ever before. It allows the worst hunters to kill birds, sometimes 4 birds when prior to this fad these same hunters would've killed zero.

I'm also one of those hunters that has tagged all my legal birds for as long as I've hunted in TN. Sure it's hypocritical to a degree, and my hands are not clean. However, I spread my misery out over 300,000 acres and 4-5 counties. I also am on public ground obviously so it's much harder if not impossible to control the number of birds removed each year.

If anything since I'm one of the tiny percentage killing a limit each year, I should be vehemently against a lower limit. However, I'm all for it, and want it to go back to 2 for several years to let things recover from the damage by us hunters and natural events.

I'm also all for the outlawing of decoys and fans, people can learn to hunt or have unfilled tags. There's plenty of turkey hunters, we don't need to recruit anymore, and if they want to take up the sport bad enough they can learn to hunt rather then just shoot. Our society is so f-ed up that for someone to get "hooked" they have to have instant success. That in and of itself if complete garbage. Gone are the days of earning something, and being better for it.

Another great post....

 

[TNTomtaker01]

I'm one of the ones that feel fanning, decoys, and blinds are causing more turkeys to get killed then ever before. It allows the worst hunters to kill birds, sometimes 4 birds when prior to this fad these same hunters would've killed zero.

I'm also one of those hunters that has tagged all my legal birds for as long as I've hunted in TN. Sure it's hypocritical to a degree, and my hands are not clean. However, I spread my misery out over 300,000 acres and 4-5 counties. I also am on public ground obviously so it's much harder if not impossible to control the number of birds removed each year.

If anything since I'm one of the tiny percentage killing a limit each year, I should be vehemently against a lower limit. However, I'm all for it, and want it to go back to 2 for several years to let things recover from the damage by us hunters and natural events.

I'm also all for the outlawing of decoys and fans, people can learn to hunt or have unfilled tags. There's plenty of turkey hunters, we don't need to recruit anymore, and if they want to take up the sport bad enough they can learn to hunt rather then just shoot. Our society is so f-ed up that for someone to get "hooked" they have to have instant success. That in and of itself if complete garbage. Gone are the days of earning something, and being better for it.

Another great post....

X2

 

[TN hunter]

I'm one of the ones that feel fanning, decoys, and blinds are causing more turkeys to get killed then ever before. It allows the worst hunters to kill birds, sometimes 4 birds when prior to this fad these same hunters would've killed zero.

I'm also one of those hunters that has tagged all my legal birds for as long as I've hunted in TN. Sure it's hypocritical to a degree, and my hands are not clean. However, I spread my misery out over 300,000 acres and 4-5 counties. I also am on public ground obviously so it's much harder if not impossible to control the number of birds removed each year.

If anything since I'm one of the tiny percentage killing a limit each year, I should be vehemently against a lower limit. However, I'm all for it, and want it to go back to 2 for several years to let things recover from the damage by us hunters and natural events.

I'm also all for the outlawing of decoys and fans, people can learn to hunt or have unfilled tags. There's plenty of turkey hunters, we don't need to recruit anymore, and if they want to take up the sport bad enough they can learn to hunt rather then just shoot. Our society is so f-ed up that for someone to get "hooked" they have to have instant success. That in and of itself if complete garbage. Gone are the days of earning something, and being better for it.

Great post!!


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[Bone Collector]

IMO, harvest numbers ARE NOT a great indicator of the condition of the statewide population. As an example, when the population was at its peak, a good turkey hunter (not me) may have had 25 gobblers on a farm to hunt, and it may have taken him/her a half dozen hunts to kill a limit of four. Fast forward to the present, and that turkey hunter may only have 10 gobblers on that same farm to hunt, and it may take them the whole season to take their four. But, guess what, the harvest figures at the end are going to reflect the very same numbers for that hunter no matter the total decline.

When I am receiving professional observations from across the state from wildlife officers that say we are in a rapid, downhill slide, I temper what the harvest numbers may or may not be showing. Add to it turkey hunters that live for the spring season that are now saying my flock is a third of what it used to be and I get concerned. I am convinced that the blinds, decoys, fanning, etc. are also masking the decline and keeping the numbers higher than they would have been without those tactics to rely on. Right or wrong, they are allowing hunters to kill multiple birds that very likely would not have been killing any years ago. Comparing harvest figures in the times before and after the addition of these modern tactics sort of make it like comparing apples to oranges.

Bean counting has a place in decision making. But, so does professional observations from people that are out there every day. IMO, agency decision makers are relying way too much on some harvest figures that very likely ARE NOT a valid comparison of the present and our flock at its peak. Hopefully the Commission will add some common sense to the equation and try to do something to slow down the decline.

Great post, but there is a couple issues with it. If harvest data, isn't the best indicator, what is? It doesn't matter what is, because we probably don't have it. Bean counting will be used in every decision, you acknowledge that in your post, but if the only beans they have to count are harvest numbers, then that is what they will go off of. Unless they see a dramatic drop in harvest #'s they will believe the population is just fine.

If so many of you believe the "professional observations" AKA avid turkey hunters, maybe some biological surveys???, then I say do what the deer hunters have done and start the petition to lower the limit and it may get done. My observation this year is I have seen just as many birds as I have in years past. However on my brothers property in Wilson County, the birds are in the area, but not using his property as much. Therefore gobbling, and kills are down this year there, but we can see the birds over in fields across property lines, just can't hunt over there.... Got a place I don't turkey hunt. saw 20+ Toms in the field there in Dec. I hear turkeys on roost 95% of the time while i am deer hunting there. Guess what county.... Giles. "But Giles county is suffering a mass turkey decline..." Just ask the folks that hunt on here.

All this made me ponder a few questions. Many on this thread have been saying, "I've noticed a decline for the last few years and have been saying the limit should be 3 or less for years now."
How many of you avid turkey hunters have shot 4 birds a year on your places for the last 4-5 years? If you did shoot 4 and you saw a decline, why didn't you go somewhere else for some of your birds, or just not fill the 4th tag? How many posts on this site have we seen this year or in past years, where members post and say "Bird # (number over 4) in TN that I have been part of" ? If you kill 4, call in 3 for your son, 3 for your buddy, and 2 for your dad, odds are you just wiped out a lot of your birds. How many of those that post those types of posts or are known for being good turkey hunters on here, have disdain for strut decoys, fanning, blinds, etc.?

It almost seems that as it has become easier for less skilled hunters to be successful, the more skilled, are complaining about the lack of game. Could it be that we (and the TWRA) are facing the dilemma of needing to recruit new hunters to the sport, but in doing so we are seeing the effects of doing so (more kills = less population)?

I can probably answer most of these questions, as can most of you. I think we probably need to reduce it to 3, and limit the fall harvest, but if it doesn't happen, it will require that you guys that talk about this the most to limit yourself. JMO

Well if the turkeys are still in Lawrence County as you say they probably are I've hiked countless miles and haven't ever found them. I found 1 and a couple hens this year, never hunted him, and I'm not sure what his fate was I hope he's still alive and he was about 2 weeks ago.

Af far as the other 100 or so birds that use to roam around here, if they are here they have, stopped scratching for food, quit making noise, went nocturnal, and started living in holes. Because I sure can't find them.

I didn't say Lawrence, I said Giles. Never hunted turkey in Lawrence County.

 

[Bone Collector]

Bone collector, biological facts have been posted all over this forum, its great you are not seeing a decline in your flock the few short years you hunted. But guess what, I managed my way thru the hard years of 07 to 11. But all my work can only hold so much for so long. It has finally came to an end. I can no longer sustain the flock around my farm nor the other property I hunt. I hope yours stays well for you, but with the thousands I spent and the hours of hard work, I failed. Did I do it to myself, 0 birds this year, 1 bird killed last year on other property, 1 bird killed on my farm 2013. I have never limited out, 3 is the most I ever killed in one season, that was 2006. My brother is the only other person with permission to hunt my farm. 0 birds for him past 3 years. I am done with TN, I will provide info for those that wish for change, such as the info in my thread do you remember, but will never spend another dime after this year. Its not worth it anymore

Read up a couple of posts on page 2 where I told SCN, that I feel that there is more biological data behind reducing the turkey limit than deer and it is time to start petitioning for the reduction.

I just want people to consider it may not be as bad as they think and that there may be other reasons other than limits for lack of sightings. Sometimes turkeys just go else where or start preferring another area to use. They find a place where no one hunts them and they may stay for ever.

 

[Shooter77]

Wow, took the weekend off from TNDEER and this has blown up. I agree with everyone that harvest numbers aren't a indications of health of the population. I have heard numerous people state this year that there wasn't much gobbling or they even got to play the game. I created the harvest chart for my benefit to just see if people were still harvesting birds even though everyone saying they aren't having any luck. Some of the things everyone stated to make hunting better I agree and some I disagree with. I asked the commission to go back to a 3 bird limit, even said go back to a 2 bird limit for 5 years. I also asked that fall be limited to 1 bird statewide, either sex for any county. I like having the opportunity to harvest a hen when i'm hunting in the fall with my bow. It's a great challenge to get drawn on one and successfully kill it.

As for the decoys issues, you guys need to set back rethink what your saying. The reason a lot of you complain about it is because it makes a non skilled hunter successful in taking "your" birds that you've spent years learning and developing your skills for. I invite all the new hunters to use what tactics that's legal so they can enjoy the sport I've been enjoying for 25 years. A lot of you guys sound almost elitist in your views about new people hunting turkey hunting. Funny thing, i've used decoys for years and have a strutter, jake & hens and I've only been successful with a decoy 1 time. I wonder why I even carry those things up and down the mountains. :bash: I just want to have a chance a playing the game each time I go hunting. This year it's just not happened at all.

 

[Setterman]

Shooter I understand what you're saying but you seem to think those of us that are experienced were just born into it and didn't have to suffer through our first few years learning how to play the game before we were successful. It obviously didn't kill us or make us quit the sport, it made us better in the long run. I promise my first few years were brutal, but I learned the game and it made me personally much better as a hunter in the long run. It was frustrating at times but it was incredibly rewarding when I learned the sport.

In addition we had far fewer birds to hunt them there are now and we could go weeks without finding a bird.

I grew up hunting a state where decoys were illegal and we had to learn how to hunt field turkeys without them. Sure we lost a lot of battles but over time we learned how to play that game and won as many as we lost.

I do not support the notion that new hunters must be given easy success in order for them to stick with it. That's the way out screwed up society is viewing everything these days. No one is willing to pay their dues anymore and learn how to be successful. They have to have success right now or else they'll quit.

 

[TheLBLman]

Perhaps we should be asking if we want the sport of turkey hunting to be more a "hunting" sport, or more a "shooting" sport?

I lean towards it being more about the "hunting", and then, more about the "quality" than the "quantity" of that hunting.
We have other hunting sports that can be more about shooting (dove, waterfowl, small game), as well as many non-hunting outright shooting sports and/or opportunities to shoot non-living targets.

A part of hunting is shooting. But how often? A part of hunting is killing. But how often? Of course, the answers depend on one's perspectives and just what game is being hunted. Meanwhile, shooting does not have to involve hunting, and many people are as enthused and "in to" their non-hunting shooting sports as Tiger Woods is about golf.

We devalue the hunting whenever we just make it more about the shooting, or start thinking a hunt must include a kill to be a good hunt or a good day afield. There is just so much more to real hunting than just shooting and killing.

Regarding turkey hunting in Tennessee, I'd like to see TWRA more focused on doing what they can to promote a safe and quality hunting experience, which includes a focus on managing the resource (the turkeys) for sustainability, rather than just how many shooters can kill multiple turkeys. Again, in the State of Kentucky, with a 2-bird limit, the average KY turkey hunter has better odds of killing a turkey (while enjoying better quality turkey hunting). Our longer season and higher limits do not equate to better hunting for most TN turkey hunters.

 

[Roost 1]

Perhaps we should be asking if we want the sport of turkey hunting to be more a "hunting" sport, or more a "shooting" sport?

I lean towards it being more about the "hunting", and then, more about the "quality" than the "quantity" of that hunting.
We have other hunting sports that can be more about shooting (dove, waterfowl, small game), as well as many non-hunting outright shooting sports and/or opportunities to shoot non-living targets.

A part of hunting is shooting. But how often? A part of hunting is killing. But how often? Of course, the answers depend on one's perspectives and just what game is being hunted. Meanwhile, shooting does not have to involve hunting, and many people are as enthused and "in to" their non-hunting shooting sports as Tiger Woods is about golf.

We devalue the hunting whenever we just make it more about the shooting, or start thinking a hunt must include a kill to be a good hunt or a good day afield. There is just so much more to real hunting than just shooting and killing.

Regarding turkey hunting in Tennessee, I'd like to see TWRA more focused on doing what they can to promote a safe and quality hunting experience, which includes a focus on managing the resource (the turkeys) for sustainability, rather than just how many shooters can kill multiple turkeys. Again, in the State of Kentucky, with a 2-bird limit, the average KY turkey hunter has better odds of killing a turkey (while enjoying better quality turkey hunting). Our longer season and higher limits do not equate to better hunting for most TN turkey hunters.

Another great post.....sadly enough tho it takes some people along time to realize a successful hunt doesn't have to involve killing something.

 

[ZachMarkus]

I agree that way more birds get killed by fanning or running in to a strutter decoy that would probably live otherwise, I would be all for banning both, I don't use decoys, I've fanned a few gobblers over the past few years but I don't need a fan to kill turkeys, I would rather call one gobbling to my gun anyways, yes fanning one is exciting but there's literally no skill involved, if there's a gobbler in a field strutting with a hen and you crawl out there with a fan the chances of you getting a shot at that bird is about 90% from my past experiences, I say ban fans and decoys and drop the limit to 2 birds and see what happens in a couple of years.

 

[Setterman]

I agree that way more birds get killed by fanning or running in to a strutter decoy that would probably live otherwise, I would be all for banning both, I don't use decoys, I've fanned a few gobblers over the past few years but I don't need a fan to kill turkeys, I would rather call one gobbling to my gun anyways, yes fanning one is exciting but there's literally no skill involved, if there's a gobbler in a field strutting with a hen and you crawl out there with a fan the chances of you getting a shot at that bird is about 90% from my past experiences, I say ban fans and decoys and drop the limit to 2 birds and see what happens in a couple of years.

I a surprised to see your opinions on what you feel we need to do, not judging you just thought you might see things differently.

Welcome to the dark side young Skywalker

 

[Shooter77]

Shooter I understand what you're saying but you seem to think those of us that are experienced were just born into it and didn't have to suffer through our first few years learning how to play the game before we were successful. It obviously didn't kill us or make us quit the sport, it made us better in the long run. I promise my first few years were brutal, but I learned the game and it made me personally much better as a hunter in the long run. It was frustrating at times but it was incredibly rewarding when I learned the sport.

In addition we had far fewer birds to hunt them there are now and we could go weeks without finding a bird.

I grew up hunting a state where decoys were illegal and we had to learn how to hunt field turkeys without them. Sure we lost a lot of battles but over time we learned how to play that game and won as many as we lost.

I do not support the notion that new hunters must be given easy success in order for them to stick with it. That's the way out screwed up society is viewing everything these days. No one is willing to pay their dues anymore and learn how to be successful. They have to have success right now or else they'll quit.

Setterman, I can see your point, but in this day and age of getting new hunters into the sport, keeping it some what exciting is a good thing. I'm looking forward to my 5 year old joining me next year and I will use every legal method for him to get a shot a bird I can. A struter decoy would help me get the bird focused on something besides us moving in a blind. I feel your pain about learning how to hunt these birds. I suffered for 10 years before i killed a bird, it was a gobbling jake and it still hangs proudly on my wall. I guess i could see what everyone is talking about when it comes to decoying in a big field. I've only killed 1 bird in a field, and it was just a food plot in a power line last year. All my birds have been mountain birds on wooded ridge lines.

 

[Setterman]

If making a call that resembles a hen turkey and having a gobbler thunder back at you isn't enough excitement for someone to stay with the sport whether they kill or not,then they don't belong in this sport.

If strategizing on the go about how to move, set up, and position yourself to call a bird in isn't exciting whether you kill or not isn't exciting. Then turkey hunting isn't the place for that person

If having a bird hang up just out of range strutting, gobbling etc and watching him walk away after you've pondered over how to get him to break and come those final steps isn't exciting then turkey hunting isn't for you.

If planning and wondering for days after a close call isn't enough motivation to get back in the game. Then turkey hunting isn't for you.

Bottom line, turkey hunting is the most exhilarating, exciting, nerve wrecking, frustrating, and intuitive form of hunting we have and most of the hunts I remember are the ones where I walked out bird less. If other hunters can't handle bird less days, there are plenty of golf courses out there and plenty of game farms where success is guaranteed.

Why must new hunters kill in order to be hooked? They shouldn't is the answer, if they have to draw blood to get hooked I don't want them in the sport,period. It's a dam shame that what we as Americans have become, that in order to be satisfied we have to be successful from the start.

As far as kids, mine will learn to sit still if they want to be successful, no better lesson then learning the hard way and becoming better for it. If they get discouraged from lack of success, they can either listen and learn or take up another sport. Sounds harsh I know, but that's how I was raised and how my kids will be raised and how I am when I take kids each season.

Not taking shots at you Shooter, just stating my views and where I derive them from.

 

[TheLBLman]

While I don't have as much "issue" with decoys and pop-up blinds as Setterman, I believe all his points have great validity.

Great post above, Setterman, and very well stated.

Not just about turkey hunting, but with most things, if their obtainment is real easy, we tend not to value them very much. We tend to most value those things for which we work hardest to achieve.

Most lifetime hunters I know learned by making tons of mistakes. Most of those who gave up on hunting were more typically those who were mentored more with a shooting rather than hunting mindset mentor. I know there are exceptions to everything, but I continue to believe the best way to create lifelong hunters is by starting them hunting small game (where more shooting is inherent), getting fairly good at both the hunting and the shooting, then moving up to larger game such as turkeys and deer. Over the years, the majority of "new" hunters I've seen who began with deer or turkey did not become lifelong hunters, and that may be in part due to their mentors focusing too much on the shooting/killing and not enough on the hunting.

There may be no better way to collapse time frames and learn basic hunting skills than by fall squirrel hunting (without dogs). Note: Hunting squirrels with dogs is exciting, but probably not the best way for a novice to personally learn general basic hunting skills.

One great thing about a lower turkey limit is that it can equate to more hunting mentoring by the more accomplished hunters, not to mention, more birds available to the less accomplished as they enjoy the journey of becoming more, hear more gobbling, experience more excitement from each hunt.

Personally, it took me several years of turkey hunting before I finally killed one. I now find it relatively easy to kill 4 each spring, even though I usually stop at 3 or less, and am doing more of my hunting with less experienced hunters who appreciate that opportunity. IMO, it's easier than most are thinking for experienced turkey killers to totally wipe out all the adult male birds in a fairly large area (such as "a farm" or several hundred acres), and this is more true today than at any time in the past. It has never before been so easy to simply "kill" a turkey, especially if the focus is mostly on just that, with very little interest, and very little experience with the "hunting".

This simplest method for TWRA to improve our turkey population and our turkey hunting would be quite simply to just reduce the spring limit (no more than 3, but I believe 2 would be best) while totally eliminating fall turkey hunting.