Hen Discussion.....

[Grizzly Johnson]

So as not to hijack the other thread.... Carry on..... civil like.

I wish you would repost the picture of the developing eggs so people can see what they're killing when they kill a hen, bearded or otherwise. If a person thinks it's worth the cost to kill one, then that's up to them, I'm not passing judgment. But a scraggly 6" beard, no spurs, and very little meat is not worth taking 5-6 new turkeys out of the population in my opinion. Again, if it's a trophy to you, then the State of Tennessee allows you to kill one. But at least think about the cost before you kill it.

I wish you would repost the picture of the developing eggs so people can see what they're killing when they kill a hen, bearded or otherwise. If a person thinks it's worth the cost to kill one, then that's up to them, I'm not passing judgment. But a scraggly 6" beard, no spurs, and very little meat is not worth taking 5-6 new turkeys out of the population in my opinion. Again, if it's a trophy to you, then the State of Tennessee allows you to kill one. But at least think about the cost before you kill it.

Every doe killed in the fall has the same embryos as well, as you also against killing those?

I wish you would repost the picture of the developing eggs so people can see what they're killing when they kill a hen, bearded or otherwise. If a person thinks it's worth the cost to kill one, then that's up to them, I'm not passing judgment. But a scraggly 6" beard, no spurs, and very little meat is not worth taking 5-6 new turkeys out of the population in my opinion. Again, if it's a trophy to you, then the State of Tennessee allows you to kill one. But at least think about the cost before you kill it.

Every doe killed in the fall has the same embryos as well, as you also against killing those?

He isn't against killing does I guaruntee that. Turkeys don't dominate the woods around here like deer do, alot more delicate.

He is also one that makes comments about the population possibly declining, as well as me.

Then the proper course of action is to get the laws changed, not degrade a mans hard earned LEGAL kill.

Every doe killed in the fall has the same embryos as well, as you also against killing those?

The population dynamic with turkeys and with deer are totally different. Biologically, a large number of does need to be killed each year to keep the population balanced. Without killing does, the ratio quickly gets thrown off and the overall heard health declines.

With turkeys, due to extremely high predation rates and the potential for large scale hatch failures in certain areas, there is no biological reason to remove hens. As Woodsman said, the turkey population is much more delicate than deer population.

So, no I'm not against killing does, and yes I am strongly against killing hens. It's apples and oranges.

To be clear, I'm not trying to bash your buddy for killing a hen. I know they're legal and some people kill them. I would just like people to think about the ramifications before they pull the trigger. Not killing her may direly result in 2-3 hard gobbling adult male turkeys in that area two years from now, plus more hens to lay more clutches. Killing her results in a scraggly 6" beard and a 5 lbs worth of breast meat. The best possible thing that could come from it is a good sounding wingbone call. Just think about it.

And I really do wish the OP would repost the developing egg pictures. It's helpful to see.

Then the proper course of action is to get the laws changed, not degrade a mans hard earned LEGAL kill.

I didn't take it as degrading a mans hard earned LEGAL kill.... rather giving his stance with some information as to why he feels this way...

There's a whole forum where he can start his own thread for that.

I would like to see the eggs also. Didn't get to see them yet. It helps put it in perspective to those that don't understand.

Also, it will help see what stage of development this hen was in. All of them are probably a little different, and different in other areas of state.

 

[woodsman87]

I have seen that the reason the rules are "bearded birds only" is so that hunters will not shoot at colors and movements of black, red, blue, and white. So they put in the rule to where you have to identify I beard before you shoot it. Even if you kill a 5 year old gobbler with 1-1/2" spurs and testicals, it is still illegal if it doesn't have a beard.

Smart and good rule, but I wish the would make it "bearded gobblers only"

 

[Grizzly Johnson]

You know, in relation to your post Wm87, I wonder how many hunters actually shoot before they see a beard.... I mean a good clear view of a beard. I have seen several instances where some say "when his head popped up over the hill/edge/rise/log, I rolled him" or "the longbeard and jake went behind a tree or thick stuff, when his red head poked out I rolled him but had shot the jake by "mistake"".... As you said, in Tennessee, if he has a mature gobble, spurs, and full fan.... but no visible beard, it's an illegal bird/kill.

 

[pass-thru]

If there is an established turkey population, there is no reason not to allow harvest of hens. And considering that bearded hens are less than 20% of the female population even where they appear most commonly, allowing harvest of bearded hens can do no harm given the nature of wild turkey population dynamics.

Wild turkey populations incur tremendous attrion, and their reproductivec cycles have adapted to thrive in spite of tremendous attrition. Only a small fraction of poults that hatch survive to one year, and of those that do, at least 50% of each age class will attrite prior to its successive birthday. Turkey populations follow this model with or without hunting...based on natural predationa and mortality alone.

In fact, hunting with seasons and bag limits based on actual population models, are designed to skim the cream and have no overal impact on the population at all. Much more crucial to wild turkey populations is the success of the hatch, which is largely weather dependent.

Consider how many hens and nests are destroyed by cutting hay...yet turkeys continue to thrive.

There will always be natural ups and downs. That is usually the result of hatch rates which depend on weahter conditions.

I enjoy fall hunting and have taken several hens in that manner. This has always been when population levels were high. After a bad hatch or two, I generally don't hunt them in the fall. Most of the other VA turkey hunters I know do the same. I prefer to take a hen rather than a jake, but that's personal preference.

 

[woodsman87]

The arguement is always "She probably would have died anyways because most of them don't make it to theif 1st birthday."

And that is correct, chances are she will not. But mortality rate already so high, why make it higher be even the miniscule harvest of hens?

I am not a whiner or complainer, but Giles and Lawrence County Tennessee isn't even remotely close to the way it used to be. Northern parts of the county are still good, but the southern halves are horrendous. I have had many thoughts, theories, and discussions about the population declines in these areas.

I tend to want to believe it is a naturaul population decline to the local ecosystems carrying capacity. But, why is it not like that in the Northern parts of these counties? It is the same habitat. Weather isn't any different. And then a little further north in Lewis, Maury, and Marshall counties is even better. Still not much different as far as habitat and weather. It is basically like south of Highway 64 is a turkey wasteland.

It just bothers me to see people shoot hens when they do not understand the ramifications of it.

 

[Andy S.]

...I wonder how many hunters actually shoot before they see a beard

More than will admit it.

I have seen several instances where some say "when his head popped up over the hill/edge/rise/log, I rolled him"..

x2

 

[catman529]

I'm not sure why Southern Sportsman is hating on the hen killing so much, when he gladly took wing bones from 2 hens I killed. I was glad to share them and still am glad they went to good use, but sheesh...

 

[Grizzly Johnson]

You like killing hens, he don't.... which could be why he took the wingbones from your hens....

 

[catman529]

You like killing hens, he don't.... which could be why he took the wingbones from your hens....

and he wants everyone to not kill hens judging by the above post, kind of like a PETA member taking meat from someone

 

[Southern Sportsman]

I'm not trying to "hate" on hen killing, just sharing my view on the subject. And I really appreciate you sharing your hen bones, but that doesn't mean I approve of the underlying hen killing. But their bones do make better sounding calls, and since you were likely going to kill a few anyway, it seemed like a good trade.

I also have slightly less of a problem killing them in the fall than in the spring. In the fall, many of them are young hens and will be killed anyway. They have not been bred, and there is still a hell of a long way for them to go before they make a nest and lay any eggs. So it hurts me less to see a SMALL number of hens killed in the fall. But shooting one that has already survived the winter, made it to the breeding cycle, been bread, and is within a few days of making a nest and laying eggs -- or has already made a nest and has been laying eggs, is in effect no different than shooing a hen from the next and stomping on the eggs. And for what? -- a 6" scraggly beard.

 

[Grizzly Johnson]

apples to oranges buddy.....

 

[TheRealSpurhunter]

I'm not sure why Southern Sportsman is hating on the hen killing so much, when he gladly took wing bones from 2 hens I killed. I was glad to share them and still am glad they went to good use, but sheesh...

Same reason the guys that hunt next to me in unit L claim to be "trophy" hunters, yet in five seasons they have never taken a doe, but gladly accepted the summer sausage I offered them....

 

[muddyboots]

I don't shoot hens. I don't shoot jakes. Just don't see the allure in it but that's just me. We have a bearded hen that's been on our lease for 5 years. We see her a lot and she has a weird spot on her wing to identify her. No telling how many gobblers she has hatched for me to shoot. LOL Also we had a huge gobbler that I passed a couple times a few years back because I could not see a beard. Everytime I saw it was strutting. A buddy killed it a week later and saw it out of strut and could see its did indeed had a beard stub. 4 inches. It had developed beard rot.

 

[TheRealSpurhunter]

I'm not trying to "hate" on hen killing, just sharing my view on the subject. And I really appreciate you sharing your hen bones, but that doesn't mean I approve of the underlying hen killing. But their bones do make better sounding calls, and since you were likely going to kill a few anyway, it seemed like a good trade.

I also have slightly less of a problem killing them in the fall than in the spring. In the fall, many of them are young hens and will be killed anyway. They have not been bred, and there is still a hell of a long way for them to go before they make a nest and lay any eggs. So it hurts me less to see a SMALL number of hens killed in the fall. But shooting one that has already survived the winter, made it to the breeding cycle, been bread, and is within a few days of making a nest and laying eggs -- or has already made a nest and has been laying eggs, is in effect no different than shooing a hen from the next and stomping on the eggs. And for what? -- a 6" scraggly beard.

I certainly get your concerns, but I think the overall number of hens killed isnt a huge factor. Its been legal for how many years in TN, yet overall turkey pop has increased statewide.
I shake my head over the guys that wont shoot a coyote while turkey hunting, or a bobcat during season because it might affect their chance at a gobbler that day. Its short sighted, those two predators kill a TON of turkeys year round.

 

[Thicketmaster]

I agree somewhat to what southern sportsman is saying if you don't have many turkeys you shouldn't be killing any hens legal or not! Their the reason we got all these turkeys! The farm we are hunting is loaded though we got about 75 hens on 500 ac I have counted that many in one flock there everywhere! I removed the pics I didn't want to offend anyone I was really looking at it scientifically its something I've never seen and was surprised at how many eggs she had!

 

[woodsman87]

I disagree that turkey populations are increasing statewide. I think they have platuead, and probably decreasing some. They are definately decreasing in ever county and privately owned farm and place I have access to, and have been for several years.

I think all of you would understand my thoughts of shooting hens if you were to hunt anywhere that I have access to (minus public land in Maury county.)

 

[Southern Sportsman]

I agree somewhat to what southern sportsman is saying if you don't have many turkeys you shouldn't be killing any hens legal or not! Their the reason we got all these turkeys! The farm we are hunting is loaded though we got about 75 hens on 500 ac I have counted that many in one flock there everywhere! I removed the pics I didn't want to offend anyone I was really looking at it scientifically its something I've never seen and was surprised at how many eggs she had!

Thicket, first, you did not offend me personally when you posted the hen or the eggs. In fact, I'm glad you posted it. And I hope I didn't offend you with my opinions. I've tried to be very respectful while still speaking my mind. I understand that killing the occasional hen won't have a noticeable impact on the overall population, but it will (or may) have some direct affect. I don't get mad if someone wants to kill one -- that's their prerogative. I just want people to have some idea of what they're killing (i.e., potentially more than just that one hen), and if that's worth it to them, then so be it.

For example, Catman walked up on a nesting hen with 13 eggs a few days ago. I would bet that he wouldn't have shot her even if she had a beard, because it would feel wrong to shoot a hen off of her nest full of eggs. But it has the same affect whether she is sitting or about to start laying, but one might feel more wrong than the other.

And for that reason, will you please post in this thread the picture of the eggs you removed from your buddy's hen? Not intended to bash in any way. It is educational and interesting, and it may help to see them.

 

[Setterman]

I'm in the camp that hens should never be killed even in the fall, but especially in the spring. There is nothing trophy like about a bearded hen to me, it's just another dam hen with a few glorified feathers coming out of her chest. There is not enough meat on a hen to use that as an excuse for removing a vital egg layer from the flock.

Don't even start the doe versus hen stuff as it is illogical and the two species are not comparable in those ways.

Fall hen killing is almost as bad but at least in the fall their not carrying next years crop.

The picture of the egg embryos bothered me, but I choose not to respond and I generally don't respond to hen pictures because of my distaste for hen killing overall.

 

[Gravey]

I won't shoot a bearded hen but that's my personal choice. I'd prefer her lay eggs and 20% or so make it than me kill her with 0% chance of laying anything. If your happy shooting them on your place I'm tickled to death for you. Just not my cup of tea.

 

[Bone Collector]

The only way i would kill a bearded hen is if it was what I call a "salt and pepper" hen. not an all white one, that is just a domestic that got loose, but one that is white, and black mix. I have seen three, and none had beards. I did see one in fall, but couldn't get her.

I have mixed emotions on shooting them now in the fall. I have done it, but that was 2010 or 2011. I have had opportunities to go and know where there are big flocks, but I'd rather bow hunt for deer in October then flock shoot turkeys. Plus, now I just don't feel like killing them anymore.

SS is right. There is a noticeable difference in the amount of meat you get off a hen.