Is this the Down side to QDM?

fishboy1 said:
156,
I agree and disagree with you both.
The part that I disagree with points out the problem with QDM and hunter perception.

QDM'ers preach #1. Let em walk. #2. Let em walk. #3. Food plots. Only diehard QDM guys say #1. habitat management #2. Population control through doe harvests #3. Buck age limits.

QDM is a whole package and the media is doing a pretty lame job making that point. I feel that the "let em walk" crowd is creating negative feelings in the Joe average hunter. The perception is "Oh he wants me to pass on my only chance to take a deer this season so it can grow up and he can kill it on the other side of the fence....Screw QDM"
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No doubt about that. Your completely correct. Those guys even rub me the wrong way and I won't shoot anything but mature bucks, but yes your 100% correct the media is doing a horrible job making that point. There are only a few select shows on the air now that show what goes into the entire project not just the passing of young bucks.

I guess QDM has changed my hunting habits all around and the whole entire package would be hard to carry out and virtually impossible on some properties. Everywhere I have permission I'm usually in the woods way before the season starts improving that area. Now I may not be able to plant a food plot, or chop down trees to promote new growth but I'm usually able to do a few things that either alters the deer's travel route or create a save haven for them. To me that's how QDM could go anywhere.
 
no matter what program you aspire to you will find jealously and criticism......
goes with the territory!
 
fishboy1 said:
QDM'ers preach #1. Let em walk. #2. Let em walk. #3. Food plots. Only diehard QDM guys say #1. habitat management #2. Population control through doe harvests #3. Buck age limits.
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Except those that preach just "let 'em walk and food plots" aren't educated QDMers. They don't understand what QDM really is. But that doesn't stop them from being highly irritating and giving QDM a black eye.


QDM is a whole package and the media is doing a pretty lame job making that point. I feel that the "let em walk" crowd is creating negative feelings in the Joe average hunter. The perception is "Oh he wants me to pass on my only chance to take a deer this season so it can grow up and he can kill it on the other side of the fence....Screw QDM"
Click to expand...

I completely agree. As I've said many times, the worst thing to happen to deer hunting in a long time is TV and DVD hunting shows. They promote the wrong things, provide incorrect information (due primarily to being infomercials) and frustrate hunters.
 
I give you QDM guys a lot of guff but think overall it is a good direction to be moving...generally.

The question I would like to pose is this.

How can the QDM movement do a better job getting the entire package out to hunters/land managers?

Or more importantly, how can we change our positioning to keep the large numbers of "average joe" hunters from turning against QDM?

I really feel that there is going to be a backlash in perception among the average hunter if we keep going the way we are.
 
I think one of the best ways is through discussions, like this forum. When I first became aware of the QDMA/QDM I was under the impression that it was "trophy management" until I did my own research( QDMA website, talking to land managers etc.). I think it also shows that the "average joe" is enjoying one of the benefits of QDM by the number of applicants to Catoosa and Presidents Island etc. These are places that have imposed an antler restriction and the taking of does on Catoosa. Now I dont know if you would consider this QDM. I am sure others who are more knowledgeable can enlighten me and others, but that is what I have heard these programs called by the TWRA. I completly believe that QDM should not be forced upon the entire hunting population but rather an individual decision.
 
I believe a more grass roots approach is needed here in TN. It is up to the people that are having success with a QDM program to go out and spread the word in there general area. I believe QDMA is doing their job but it is not solely up to them. It takes people like us to go out and show people what QDM is all about. Thats how I learned about it. Probably how most of you learned about it.
I have had some reallly good and bad responses from my nieghbors when I told them what we were doing. But the good ones give me hope. Hopefully they are telling their neighbors and this thing starts to snowball.
 
but you cannot worry about what the neighbor is doing, you have no contol over the people that surround your property. As long as you are doing what needs to be done on the area you have control over then you should rest easy.

the hardest part of QDM is the vast differences in each individules hunting knowledge and experience. It is just very hard to tell a person that has very limited knowledge in those to areas to let that deer they see walk. I have hunted my entire life and killed my share add in i have such a love for the species that i actually enjoy studying them so letting deer walk and working to improve habit is not an issue with me. anyway i hope that makes sense.
 
Bamma boy,
I know you know about QDM being the "whole package" but even you mentioned "letting them walk" first and foremost.

Actually I was kinda thinking of our discussion about having that nice 8 you passed get shot by that other guy when I made this post.
We were both having trouble reconciling a guy with a bunch of big bucks wanting to shoot a borderline 8 pt.
 
yeah well that brings out a WHOLE nother issue to me but its not for this thread LOL.

I do understand the whole package but to your average joe hunter the letting them walk is what is going to stick out IMO. there are alot of hunters that do not have the $ or the equipment to support the habitat goal for QDM so the let them walk idea to me is what will stick out the most. Now how to get people to understand that idea and the purpose of it is the trick then you can begin building knowledge of the whitetail deer species and what it needs to thrive, and how simple inexpensive steps can be made to improve habitat and overall deer health.

either way this is a tough issue to present because each hunter/land manager has is own thoughts and experiences.
 
Average Joe needs to know that you don't have to forego your hunting experience by letting little bucks go. That in fact he will be shooting more deer than he could ever dream of. They will just be does. And eventually he WILL get a crack at 3.5+ buck.
 
I am weighing in a little late and some of this may have been said already but each piece of property has it's own set of issues that need to be addressed to grow quality bucks. For instance my property in GA has great sex ratios, and ample food so that was taken care of and adding year round plots just made a good thing better. What needed work was cover and especially edge cover so we did several select cuts and TSI's to improve bedding cover and the number of deer exploded along with us holding more mature bucks.

I do not for the life of me understand the attraction of shooting small bucks and not tinkering with mgt. of some form or another. I really enjoy it and 6 years into it am really starting to see the payoff.

Too bad I can't manage land here in TN because of the regs passed down by the state which do not allow much antlerless harvests and promote killing small bucks. So I spend my money and time elsewhere when it comes to chasing big bucks, maybe someday my $$$ and a ton of other folks money will return but it will take a proactive measure on TWRA's behalf.
 
Fishboy,... i'm gonna weigh in with 1 more thing. You are way off on the let them walk. Let them walk IS the most important part of the management in my opinion. Followed by doe harvest.
You can implement a vast habitat improvement and a ton of plots. BUT,. without the two things above you are wasting your time. If you focus on habitat and plots all you will do is raise the overall number of deer. And thats not the goal.
Its like i told my neighbors,.. you don't have to plant plots and you don't have to make drastic habitat changes. We can manage our herd for the habitat we have, keep the total of deer within the carrying capacity of the land we have, and pass young bucks to increase the age structure of the bucks,. and we will see results. AND ,. we are seeing results.

I agree,.. habitat and plots make a big difference ,. BUT,.. if you can keep your herd within the carrying capacity of whats available to them allready,.you can do the same thing!! This can be accomplished anywere,. including public lands.
 
deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?
 
This thread has really got the wheels turning for me. I have wasted a whole day of work and have come to the conclusion that if there is a downside to QDM I don't know what it is. Personally I only wished I would have heard about QDM earlier. I will keep preaching the benefits of QDM to whom ever will listen to me. Thats all any of us can do. There will always be opposition to any good idea THAT'S LIFE. So for all you QDM haters out there -- you guys don't know what your missing.
 
lostsoul said:
deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?
Click to expand...

And so you have it. Another QDM person who does not really 'get it'.

Letting small bucks walk is the back bone of TROPHY BUCK MANAGEMENT. NOT QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT
 
Deer chaser 007,
I can show you a property in MS that has some Monster bucks on it and they shoot anything that walks in that area.

How do they have big bucks when the locals road hunt,spotlight,poach year round, and dont give a hoot about QDM? Cover and food. The land is dairy pasture, privett thickett, and mixed pine/hardwoods with heavy understory. Year round cover, year round food. The deer can get fat and old WITHOUT trigger management because they have the cover and food to do so.

We have gotten photos of a couple whopper bucks 3 years in a row that NOBODY has ever seen during daylight. Would it be easier to tag a whopper if nobody was hunting the property that wasn't on the QDM bandwagon? Sure!

So the real question is What is your goal?

To have a healthy herd? Have a lot of deer? Or to have Shooter bucks?

For most QDM people the true answer is none of the above. The true answer is "To have LOTS of large racked bucks so it is easier to kill a Trophy" and That is NOT QDM.
 
fishboy1 said:
lostsoul said:
deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?
Click to expand...

And so you have it. Another QDM person who does not really 'get it'.

Letting small bucks walk is the back bone of TROPHY BUCK MANAGEMENT. NOT QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT
Click to expand...

WHere I manage that is the case and one of the other things about QDM is manage each property in the areas it needs to be managed.

You can say what you like if it makes YOU feel better but the proof is on the wall, in the sex ratios, and in the overall health of the property I manage, period. Whatever acronym you wish to use doesn't make a damn to me.

I guess you overlooked QDM's slogan "Let him go so he can grow."
 
fishboy1 said:
lostsoul said:
deerchaser007 I agree 100%, if you reverse it and manage everything but shoot small bucks then you are not managing for quality bucks. Letting the small bucks walk is the whole back bone of QDM. If not why is one of their slogans "Let him go so he can grow"?
Click to expand...

And so you have it. Another QDM person who does not really 'get it'.

Letting small bucks walk is the back bone of TROPHY BUCK MANAGEMENT. NOT QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT
Click to expand...

That would not be correct fishboy1. Trophy Management is a specific form of management designed to produce the largest antlers possible. Quality Deer Management is a specific form of management designed to produce a more natural herd structure in balance with the habitat (more balanced sex ratio, older more natural buck age structure, and a herd density below the carrying capacity of the land).

Biologically, QDM harvest guidelines were based on a "triad" of principles: 1) let young bucks walk to increase the percentage of older bucks in the male population and to increase the total number of bucks (to help balance the adult sex ratio); 2) Use doe harvests to help balance the adult sex ratio; 3) harvest enough does to keep the herd density well-below the maximum carrying capacity of the habitat.

So letting young bucks walk was and is one of the primary principles of QDM, although doe harvests are two of the three primary principles (and often forgotten or under-emphasized).

Recently, a new version of QDM has developed that I have a bit of a problem with. I realize this concept was developed for the right reasons, but I think it discourages some hunters. The QDMA has recently upgraded the whole concept of QDM to include a four point "philosophy" including: 1) Heard Management; 2) Hunter Management; 3) Habitat Management; and 4) Herd Monitoring. Now I absolutely agree that doing all of the above will make the most successful QDM program. However, that system really limits QDM to those who own and/or control all aspects of a property. What about those hunters that only have permission to hunt a property and neither control the other hunters using the land or the habitat? What about those that lease a property hence do not control the habitat? Can't they practice QDM too? I've had many arguments with the QDMA leadership about this "upgrade" of philosophy. I managed my own land and helped many lesees manage their leases using just herd management to great success. We never touched the habitat. Biologically, QDM is a herd management practice. Habitat management is an incredibly powerful management tool, but habitat management is not unique to QDM. The exact same habitat management practices can be used to great effect in all herd management practices, from Traditional to Trophy Management.

My earlier comments about "pass young bucks and food plots" was meant as a comment about those who forget the doe harvest aspects of QDM and the belief many have that food plots alone are the total habitat management answer.
 

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