Is this the Down side to QDM?

[fishboy1]

BSK,
Right on! Notice folks. NOWHERE in BSK's definition of QDM is "bigger racks" listed. It is a desirable side effect.

Lets ask this question.

How many of you QDM folks would spend the time, money, and effort you do on QDM if it did not result in bigger racked bucks, but made the herd healthier only?

 

[kholmes]

fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.

 

[Anonymous]

Fishboy you are chasing your tail.

 

[fishboy1]

fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.

Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.

The attitude I mentioned before, will likely backlash against the QDM movement when the average joe hunter does not see the benefits of passing young deer.

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".

 

[Anonymous]

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Well once again you show me that you have no clue what you are talking about. I have firmly established an unbelievably successful QDM program on my property in GA, the proof is on the walls and on trail cams in terms of big bucks. I have a 1:2 ratio and have great overall body weight as well. The populations of other critters have increased as well including non-game species. All in all everything worked to perfection after only 6 years.

Here in TN I implemented the same mgt. strategy except for the fact that due to harvest regulations there is no way for us to reduce the antlerless population to a level that is anywhere close to carrying capacity. Thus the habitat is damaged to the point of permanent consequences. We have let hundreds and hundreds of small bucks walk only to have them killed elsewhere, which is fine and I am not judging others for what they chose to kill mind you.

Without the ability to knock the herd back by harvesting Does we are going to try a different approach and just knock the numbers back given the only way we can by killing 8 small bucks.

You do not have any concept of what the siutation is where I hunt here in East Tn and we have no other option. It is sad and probably won't work either but what we tried for the last years hasn't either. Until the regs change to promote mgt. of deer herds I am afraid we are stuck in this black hole. If so, I will give it up and spend my time and money on deer hunting in other states.

 

[deerchaser007]

Deer chaser 007,
I can show you a property in MS that has some Monster bucks on it and they shoot anything that walks in that area.

How do they have big bucks when the locals road hunt,spotlight,poach year round, and dont give a hoot about QDM? Cover and food. The land is dairy pasture, privett thickett, and mixed pine/hardwoods with heavy understory. Year round cover, year round food. The deer can get fat and old WITHOUT trigger management because they have the cover and food to do so.

We have gotten photos of a couple whopper bucks 3 years in a row that NOBODY has ever seen during daylight. Would it be easier to tag a whopper if nobody was hunting the property that wasn't on the QDM bandwagon? Sure!

So the real question is What is your goal?

To have a healthy herd? Have a lot of deer? Or to have Shooter bucks?

For most QDM people the true answer is none of the above. The true answer is "To have LOTS of large racked bucks so it is easier to kill a Trophy" and That is NOT QDM.

The problem is YOU. You come on a QDM forum looking to prove we are managing for trophy's. You ain't got a clue.

For one,.. read my post. I've never mentioned not one word about big antlers. You got that all made up in your head cause thats the way you wanna see. BUT,.. do not judge me my man ,. you don't know me.

BSK,s post said pretty much the same as mine ,.. why is he so right and i'm so wrong?? You looking to start something here?

Whats my goal. Its to provide the best habitat and produce the best results i can acheive in my area through harvest and management of age structure and keep the herd within its carrying capacity.. Thats my goal for my property,.. the neighbors don't have the luxury to touch the habitat cause some lease the land. BUT,.. they all want better deer and better bucks. The past 2 years they have been a 3.5 and a 4.5 year old buck killed by all us. The 4.5 last year was shot opening of mz and was the second oldest deer checked at the checking station that weekend from the TWRA. For myself and my neighbors,.. we were all happy for this accomplishment. Cause we are manageing for better age class,. and we are getting it. That 4.5 year old buck was only around a 120 class buck. SO,. don't throw your trophy crap in our faces. Its not a trophy under most folks view,.. but a 4.5 year old in this county,.. TROPHY!!

And please don't make me compare MS to TN. Come on dude,. you can figure that out. Its not rocket science. The soil is different and MS can have upwards of 60 to 80 deer per square mile on that soil. Just how much overharvest do you expect in that situation. My area has around a 20 to 25 deer per square mile and poor cherty soil. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,.. can you see it??

Anything else i can help you with?? Its obvious you have not got it yet,.. so keep on asking!!

 

[deerchaser007]

BSK,
Right on! Notice folks. NOWHERE in BSK's definition of QDM is "bigger racks" listed. It is a desirable side effect.

Lets ask this question.

How many of you QDM folks would spend the time, money, and effort you do on QDM if it did not result in bigger racked bucks, but made the herd healthier only?

I'm doing that allready!! BUT,.. bigger racks are part of the equation,.. cause its logical a 4.5 year old is gonna have more rack than a 1.5. Let me find a pic of one of my quality deer for you. You can judge. Its around here somewere. I'll get it on later.

 

[deerchaser007]

fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.

Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.

The attitude I mentioned before, will likely backlash against the QDM movement when the average joe hunter does not see the benefits of passing young deer.

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".

Central florida has a different type of whitetail than TN does. Can't remember what its called. This has as much to do with antlers as the soil does down there. AND,.. they are not as large bodied as our whitetails.

 

[deerchaser007]

Here you go fishboy. Now alot of folks would look at the pic and say its just a doe. BUT,.. under a management plan you use that doe to evaluate your management plan. First evaluation is age. She is clearly a older age class doe. I would guess she is 5.5 by this pic alone. Second evaluation is health in that age class. You can tell by the hams and the stomach she is clearly a very healthy deer for her age. She shows no sign of decline, or shows no sign of lack of nutrition. Plus,. this pic compared to my other age class does and bucks tell me the habitat in the area is doing its job. This in a year of exceptional drought for my area most of the late spring and all of the summer months. And all age classes from cam pics and hunting observations show a healthy herd from the habitat provided. All deer are average to above size in body weight for their age group. BUT,.. due to lack of mast,.. i do plan on stepping up the doe harvest this year a bit. I experienced very little to no effect from EHD in my herd. SO,.. to balance the habitat vs. herd capacity i need to reduce some of the older does for my younger age classes not to hurt in the coming years.
Note,.. nothing would make me more happy than to harvest this old smart doe. She is very smart ,.. and very nocturnal. She is a management challenge for that reason alone. AND ,. i'm trying.
It ain't all about racks..........

 

[fishboy1]

fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.

Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.

The attitude I mentioned before, will likely backlash against the QDM movement when the average joe hunter does not see the benefits of passing young deer.

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".

Central florida has a different type of whitetail than TN does. Can't remember what its called. This has as much to do with antlers as the soil does down there. AND,.. they are not as large bodied as our whitetails.

Sorry, There have been studies done that show you are wrong, unless you are referring to the Key deer.

 

[Anonymous]

fishboy1. I am not sure I understand your question. Larger antlers are a by product of a healthier herd. If you do not have the older class bucks your herd is not healthy. Older class bucks = larger racks.

Hunt the sandy pine forest of Central Florida where a trophy buck (4.5 yr old) is 100" and anything over 110" is a whopper. How much time, money and energy would you put into a property that has a max average potential of 100-110" bucks?

What I am trying to get at is most QDM advocates are really attempting Antler Management when you strip away all the fancy talk and BS about herd health. Plain and simple The majority (not all) "QDM" advocates are simply trying to farm large racked bucks. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but call it what it is, farming big bucks, not Quality Deer Management.

The attitude I mentioned before, will likely backlash against the QDM movement when the average joe hunter does not see the benefits of passing young deer.

Take Lostsoul for example. He IS a qdm advocate but is frustrated and stated on another thread that he is going to shoot spikes and 4 pts because he is not seeing the results he wants from his managment efforts.

Now imagine how a 3-4 weekend a year hunter feels when he is bombarded by people with private land, lots of hunting opportunity, and a management program telling him to "pass up your chance at A deer for this year" His attitude will quickly be "up yours ya spoiled hunter, I only get a couple days a year and Im taking home a deer".

Central florida has a different type of whitetail than TN does. Can't remember what its called. This has as much to do with antlers as the soil does down there. AND,.. they are not as large bodied as our whitetails.

Sorry, There have been studies done that show you are wrong, unless you are referring to the Key deer.

Fishboy you are wrong there was actually talk of sub classifying some of the FL deer because they are so much different then the rest of the whitetails in the SE. The cover is dense and food is short so they are smaller bodied and smaller racked.

 

[deerchaser007]

Actually he is correct,.. i just looked it up. DNA testing is proving that the 37 different subspecies of whitetail are from the original 1 species. The differences are in the deer becoming locally adapted to its habitat and surroundings. Causing the differences in appearance and size. Very interesting read......

My apology fishboy,. didn't know anything about that DNA testing info.

 

[tnclayboy]

It used to bother me that the ones I pass would get clobbered later .But I grew up and got over it . Its part of hunting QDM or not. I just figure I will have to hunt a little harder.
I talked with the old man that hunts the other side of the property today and he said he aint seen a deer in severall hunts and I have seen and passed on 8 to 10 deer several times this year . He don't see any deer because shoots the first one he sees every time he hunts . so naturally he dosn't see as many deer that I do. But he kills twice as many.It used to bother me but It doesn't bother me in least anymore. He just hunts the way he wants and I leave him alone .He is a great management tool LOL

 

[REN]

Bergmanns Rule, Animals tend to be larger as you travel farther from the equator. when the animals become larger or when body mass increases, porportionally the surface area decreases which results in less loss of body heat. this rule is vitally important to deer subspecies living in both warm tropical flats of Florida or cold regions.

subspecies found in FL mcilhennyi, osceloa and seminolus however thes subspecies are also found in Alabama, LA, Mississippi and parts of Texas. So lostsoul tech you are correct that the deer in FL are not the same as TN but you are incorrect in saying they are not the same as the rest of the SE. Just sayin......

alot of the deer size in FL is do to habitat and soil nutrience as well as Bergmanns Rule. There is no real reason for an animal living in that climate to grow a large body. Yet those same subspecies are being killed in Alabama with a MUCH larger body size and antler size.

not trying to start nothing just keeping the facts straight as they are right now.

 

[REN]

talking about doe harvesting where we hunt in alabama the state comes in each year and tells us how many we need to shoot off the property approx 1400 acres. Last year we were told to shot 75 does, tough part is only 4 of us hunt it. I ended up having to bring a few friends and killed 17 in 2 days. yet we still came no where close to reaching that 75. Man what would i do with 75 DEER!!!

 

[Radar]

I think the first problem is when we start catagorizing other hunters based on what they shoot . "Average Joe" , could be the best hunter in the woods , but may make a choice to shoot what he feels like shooting , not based on peer pressure .
ODM does not make a hunter an expert by any means .

 

[Anonymous]

talking about doe harvesting where we hunt in alabama the state comes in each year and tells us how many we need to shoot off the property approx 1400 acres. Last year we were told to shot 75 does, tough part is only 4 of us hunt it. I ended up having to bring a few friends and killed 17 in 2 days. yet we still came no where close to reaching that 75. Man what would i do with 75 DEER!!!

I remember going through that in AL when I lived down there, we brought everyone we knew and still couldn't reach that number. Eventually the landowner got depredation permits and we spotlighted at night and beat them back by literally taking truckloads out several nights in a row. It was ugly but had to happen.

 

[fishboy1]

The problem is YOU. You come on a QDM forum looking to prove we are managing for trophy's. You ain't got a clue.

For one,.. read my post. I've never mentioned not one word about big antlers. You got that all made up in your head cause thats the way you wanna see. BUT,.. do not judge me my man ,. you don't know me.

BSK,s post said pretty much the same as mine ,.. why is he so right and i'm so wrong?? You looking to start something here?

Whats my goal. Its to provide the best habitat and produce the best results i can acheive in my area through harvest and management of age structure and keep the herd within its carrying capacity.. Thats my goal for my property,.. the neighbors don't have the luxury to touch the habitat cause some lease the land. BUT,.. they all want better deer and better bucks. The past 2 years they have been a 3.5 and a 4.5 year old buck killed by all us. The 4.5 last year was shot opening of mz and was the second oldest deer checked at the checking station that weekend from the TWRA. For myself and my neighbors,.. we were all happy for this accomplishment. Cause we are manageing for better age class,. and we are getting it. That 4.5 year old buck was only around a 120 class buck. SO,. don't throw your trophy crap in our faces. Its not a trophy under most folks view,.. but a 4.5 year old in this county,.. TROPHY!!

And please don't make me compare MS to TN. Come on dude,. you can figure that out. Its not rocket science. The soil is different and MS can have upwards of 60 to 80 deer per square mile on that soil. Just how much overharvest do you expect in that situation. My area has around a 20 to 25 deer per square mile and poor cherty soil. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,.. can you see it??

Anything else i can help you with?? Its obvious you have not got it yet,.. so keep on asking!!

Sorry to have gotten your nickers in a bunch.

What I am trying to do is get people to understand is that there is more than one way to see things, and the QDM bunch is doing a poor job in many instances of making their case to the general public.

I think that QDM is wonderful on private managed properties. I think it will eventually be a disaster on public lands and for the "average" hunter with limited time and access.

What fun is hunting if you dont see and kill deer occasionally? I would not spend the number of days/hours in the woods that I do if I almost never saw any deer and only had the opportunity to kill a deer once every year or three. Unfortunately that is the reality for the "average" hunter who only kills a deer every 2.5years.

If you try and jam QDM down his throat by season limits or by social pressure (telling him to let the little ones pass or slamming them for taking a small buck) then at some point the average hunter will reject the idea of QDM all together. OR worse, they will quit hunting and the hunting community will get smaller and weaker. Neither is a good result.

 

[kholmes]

hey, can some one let me come hunt thier qdm land to see what this is all about???? say let me shoot one of your big racked older bucks and i will post on here what my opinon is about the whole thing for free of course... just for some outside neutral opinon on whether or not this qdm stuff is for real or not

QDM doesn't make them any more stupid. 5 yrs practicing and 2 bucks taken, my odds still aren't that great. But they all tipped the scales at about 160lbs. and I have taken some does that were pushing 120lbs. This year should be a good year I did see some serious rut activity Sat. am. 1 doe being chased by 4 bucks. That is something I have only read about before and never witnessed first hand. So I think that is proof that it is really starting to work for us.

 

[REN]

ok let me see if i can type this and it make sense......

I am very much into the goal of QDM but alot of it is basic deer and wildlife common sense to me. As i have stated in other threads i have done alot of research on DEER along with other wildlife including behavior, ideal habitats and overall species knowledge. I have practiced QDM for years (actually before i knew there was a name for it) so i dont think alot of this is very NEW to some hunters. If you know deer you know what type of habitat is ideal and if you dont have ideal then ways you can make it as close as possble. You would also know about food sources and density and adverse affects it can have. I have always wanted to kill big deer once the KILLER phased passed me by so i did everything i could to produce that oppertunity (and i dont mean just bucks). it is a common thing TO ME to understand too many deer = poor food. Also removing young males unbalances a heard same with females. I have been Fortunate enough to have all these options on 1400 acres of family land with little pressue in a part of AL that is know to produce some FINE bucks. so i guess my question is how do you get these thoughts to people in the senerios below

1. A guy that only hunts a handful of times a year
2. Public land hunters
3. Small acre owners
4. Youngsters just getting started in hunting.

those are the higher % hunters in TN (i would assume) so those are the people that would need to be reached for it to truely be successfull. These hunters IMO would be tough to reach as you can imagine what goes through there heads during a deer hunt and the expectations they set on those hunts.

again i dont think you have to reach out and drill QDM to people but more of common sense hunting if your goal is to upgrade the overall quality of deer on a given piece of property. This also includes the state and how they set up deer regulations each year. If regs are set to not allow you to accomplish the goal then what is the point of having the goal?

anyways thats my thoughts and i dont mean to offend anyone if i did somehow. HAHAHAHA it makes more sense when i say it outloud rather then typing it.