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Nice 2 birds for the year, nothing to be ashamed of.

Just calling a spade a spade. Sorry you don't like it. I've been around long enough to see through the smoke screen folks put up.....
 
Setterman":242xapru said:
Nice 2 birds for the year, nothing to be ashamed of.

Just calling a spade a spade. Sorry you don't like it. I've been around long enough to see through the smoke screen folks put up.....
Can you not count? Doesn't surprise me, you can't read either. There are 4 birds pictured. I have been on 3 more kills this year, 7 birds total but im not going to post pics of peoples faces on a public site.
432584b49673600aeac8eb0f305dfa21.jpg

This is my public land merriam from last year
2fc9054067f7f42e38d6849e95949d97.jpg

This is a public land eastern
68731bd425d012c7ff0d5735e727ffd1.jpg

And this is a rio, i did not hang him like that and would not post this pic anywhere else
551719460f9b3f04b5d37a7d15dfe973.jpg

This is one farm i hunt.

If you would like i guess i can send you my harvest confirmation numbers.
cb1bfecf489d1df88e4fa11b46d0b0c7.jpg

There, now what do you have to say?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Goodtimekiller":3gk80kmz said:
Setterman":3gk80kmz said:
Nice 2 birds for the year, nothing to be ashamed of.

Just calling a spade a spade. Sorry you don't like it. I've been around long enough to see through the smoke screen folks put up.....
Can you not count? Doesn't surprise me, you can't read either. There are 4 birds pictured. I have been on 3 more kills this year, 7 birds total but im not going to post pics of peoples faces on a public site.
432584b49673600aeac8eb0f305dfa21.jpg

This is my public land merriam from last year
2fc9054067f7f42e38d6849e95949d97.jpg

This is a public land eastern
68731bd425d012c7ff0d5735e727ffd1.jpg

And this is a rio, i did not hang him like that and would not post this pic anywhere else
551719460f9b3f04b5d37a7d15dfe973.jpg

This is one farm i hunt.

If you would like i guess i can send you my harvest confirmation numbers.
cb1bfecf489d1df88e4fa11b46d0b0c7.jpg

There, now what do you have to say?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In Settermans defense, the first pic only showed two birds from page 2.

Nice pics though
 
Guys, you all are only scratching the surface... Think bigger, outside the box...

Simple question- 'why are the turkeys declining in TN?'... Simple answer- terrible hatch last year, terrible hatch 2 years ago. And yes, won't matter what the hatch is this year, next year will be worse than this year (unless you want to tag out on jakes).

Now for the thinking outside the box...

Simple question- 'why was the hatch terrible?'

In order to answer that, you have to look at what goes into a successful hatch... Males available to breed females, males successfully fertilizing females, females comfortable enough (lack of stress) to initiate nests, females undisturbed for 28 days while setting. Then after the hatch, weather appropriate for poult survival, mothering skills of the hen and relative lack of predators killing the poults (hawks, raccoons, coyotes, crows, etc). Growing turkeys don't have a problem getting fed, their diet is so varied they could survive on pine straw I almost believe- so food is never an issue.

The problem is, everyone assumes a poor hatch was due to predators... if we just got rid of all the nest raiders, the world would be perfect again. Or it's the weather's fault- and we can't control the weather. And don't get me wrong, those are HUGE factors in poult recruitment. But when you start to think outside the box, you begin to realize the other factors that compound the problem....

The ongoing study in TN is reavealing that nearly 1/3 hens don't bother initiating a nest... If that ends up being the final number, and if that number doesn't give you pause, there isn't any point in me continuing my discussion with you. But think deeper... WHY didn't those hens initiate a nest? About the only thing I know of in poultry that interrupts egg laying during the spring is poor nutrition and stress. Again, nutrition isn't an issue. But stress IS. An anxious flighty wild bird that is being disturbed by coyotes in March, then hunters nonstop during mid April when nests are initiated MAY significantly impact her desire to nest/ brood.

And another gripe about people not thinking outside the box regarding nest raiders... what many fail to understand is that after a hen starts setting, if the poults don't start developing inside the egg by around day 7-9, she will abandon the nest. Just because you find a bunch of broken up eggs, that does NOT mean she would have successfully hatched the following month. Many matings by toms are actually unsuccessful at fertilizing the hens, it's pretty easy to miss the mark when your pecker is only 2-3 mm in size. If the hen is going to lay that spring, she will lay the eggs whether they are fertile or not. During incubation, she will kick out the infertile eggs from the nest if others are developing. Thinking outside the box lets you realize that nest failures are probably not primarily caused by predation, although they are responsible for a large percentage of nest failures and even worse, loss of the hen herself while setting.

We also have to change our thinking regarding loss of adult birds. The initial studies done when turkeys were being reintroduced showed that virtually NO gobblers were ever killed by predators, and that virtually NO hens were killed by predators except during nesting. This is now going out the window. All the recent studies are pointing to an incredible loss of adult birds by coyotes who have adapted and learned how to aggressively and effectively kill adults. As a consequence, the old school thinking of 2.2 poults per hen in August is necessary for a stable population is also going out the window... it's probably going to take around 3 poults per hen just to maintain a stable population not counting hunting loss. Think about that... we've been around 1.5 PPH the past 2 years...

In summary, all this rambling is to make a case for maximizing nesting success... sure, removing nest predators is important, but it's probably just as important to ensure males are available throughout the season to fertilize hens, especially in the first half of active breeding season (which is the last week of March through the end of the second week of April on my farms). It may be even more important to allow hens to initiate nests undisturbed by hunting pressure and human intrusion. While I'm all in favor of reducing the gobbler limit, I know that it will NOT result in any improvement in poult recruitment UNLESS other season structure changes happen as well. I would STRONGY enourage each of you to recommend delaying season opening by 2 weeks to your commissioners. That may be the single best simple change TWRA could implement to improve nesting success.
 
Oh, and I loved MO biologist's to the point statements. He's got a level head, and knows his stuff. I wish he had pointed out in his statement that fewer jakes killed is due to fewer jakes in the population (which I have said multiple times); but even more important, he left out that fewer jakes means fewer jennies, which means fewer turkeys in all for the next SEVERAL years. That's why I was able to predict TN was going to have the worst harvest this year before season even opened. And is also why TN's harvest will be even lower next year.
 
So basically what mega just said was we need to figure out how to get rid of those genetically inferior Toms and bred some gobblers with peckers measured in inches, not in metric.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Goodtimekiller":1g9rb7y7 said:
Setterman":1g9rb7y7 said:
Nice 2 birds for the year, nothing to be ashamed of.

Just calling a spade a spade. Sorry you don't like it. I've been around long enough to see through the smoke screen folks put up.....
Can you not count? Doesn't surprise me, you can't read either. There are 4 birds pictured. I have been on 3 more kills this year, 7 birds total but im not going to post pics of peoples faces on a public site.
432584b49673600aeac8eb0f305dfa21.jpg

This is my public land merriam from last year
2fc9054067f7f42e38d6849e95949d97.jpg

This is a public land eastern
68731bd425d012c7ff0d5735e727ffd1.jpg

And this is a rio, i did not hang him like that and would not post this pic anywhere else
551719460f9b3f04b5d37a7d15dfe973.jpg

This is one farm i hunt.

If you would like i guess i can send you my harvest confirmation numbers.
cb1bfecf489d1df88e4fa11b46d0b0c7.jpg

There, now what do you have to say?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My assumptions were wrong, and for that I do apologize. Congrats on a good season again, and I am sorry for throwing false accusations. I've just seen it too many time where a lot of big talk is just that. In this case you were being upfront.
 
Goodtimekiller":zwfvgmbm said:
Setterman":zwfvgmbm said:
Nice 2 birds for the year, nothing to be ashamed of.

Just calling a spade a spade. Sorry you don't like it. I've been around long enough to see through the smoke screen folks put up.....
Can you not count? Doesn't surprise me, you can't read either. There are 4 birds pictured. I have been on 3 more kills this year, 7 birds total but im not going to post pics of peoples faces on a public site.
432584b49673600aeac8eb0f305dfa21.jpg

This is my public land merriam from last year
2fc9054067f7f42e38d6849e95949d97.jpg

This is a public land eastern
68731bd425d012c7ff0d5735e727ffd1.jpg

And this is a rio, i did not hang him like that and would not post this pic anywhere else
551719460f9b3f04b5d37a7d15dfe973.jpg

This is one farm i hunt.

If you would like i guess i can send you my harvest confirmation numbers.
cb1bfecf489d1df88e4fa11b46d0b0c7.jpg

There, now what do you have to say?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When can I come???? :o
 
Goodtimekiller":2qcvdl0e said:
Roost 1":2qcvdl0e said:
I'm not sure anybody "really" wants to change the TN regs to be like MO, BUT I think what people are saying is this. There is a problem in most parts of TN and until something is figured out MAYBE some of these management styles should be looked into until some things can be turned around. TN didn't always have a 4 bird limit. KY didn't always hunt all day or have a 23-24 day season either. KDFWR has a survey out now and some of the main questions are in regards to half day hunting and
reducing the season limit from 2 to 1...all this after 1 bad year. I may not like the results but I love the fact they are being pro-active.

And I agree bad hatches can make or break your turkey population but we cant control the weather. However when there are several bad hatches in a row we can't just keep on and on depleting the resource, something has to change. That doesn't mean it has to be a permanent change.
I agree with everything you said but will add weather, with the exception of some floods, is only one of many factors effecting nest survival and is typically a minor factor. Some of those factors we can control and some we can't, but very few people are doing their part on the ones we can control.


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I was going to make a statement about weather being a minor factor in nesting. Instead I'll just not say anything.

If I said it was minor you would change your
Mind and say it was major just to argue.

Carry on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
To Meg's point all your birds weee killed first 12 days of season which is exactly one of the main issues.
Another point I mention frequently is that almost every hen in that pic is pecking the ground at something and I'll bet it ain't rocks... I'm not arguing, not saying anything illegal is going on, I'm just making my point as to why the population is in decline. There are facts to back up my claims.
 
TreyB":384d9dgl said:
Goodtimekiller":384d9dgl said:
Setterman":384d9dgl said:
Nice 2 birds for the year, nothing to be ashamed of.

Just calling a spade a spade. Sorry you don't like it. I've been around long enough to see through the smoke screen folks put up.....
Can you not count? Doesn't surprise me, you can't read either. There are 4 birds pictured. I have been on 3 more kills this year, 7 birds total but im not going to post pics of peoples faces on a public site.
432584b49673600aeac8eb0f305dfa21.jpg

This is my public land merriam from last year
2fc9054067f7f42e38d6849e95949d97.jpg

This is a public land eastern
68731bd425d012c7ff0d5735e727ffd1.jpg

And this is a rio, i did not hang him like that and would not post this pic anywhere else
551719460f9b3f04b5d37a7d15dfe973.jpg

This is one farm i hunt.

If you would like i guess i can send you my harvest confirmation numbers.
cb1bfecf489d1df88e4fa11b46d0b0c7.jpg

There, now what do you have to say?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When can I come???? :o
Anytime in the next 3 days, sunday, being mother's day is not something i can miss with a new first child at the house.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Roost 1":a1z11kag said:
To Meg's point all your birds weee killed first 12 days of season which is exactly one of the main issues.
Another point I mention frequently is that almost every hen in that pic is pecking the ground at something and I'll bet it ain't rocks... I'm not arguing, not saying anything illegal is going on, I'm just making my point as to why the population is in decline. There are facts to back up my claims.

I agree, in the last 3 years i've tagged out within the first 2 weeks. But, i've also said i have not seen a decline in the birds. But, i dont kill many birds at any one farm. From that farm in the pic i shot one bird last year. And hens peck the ground to find food of any sort. This particular farmer feeds his cows in cement troughs not by pouring on the ground like many i know. You can say what you want but i have not seen a decline on any of the farms ive had to hunt. I believe there were 5 longbeards in that pic, this year i was seeing 6 i the same field with 6 jakes.

This is the thing i dont understand and one reason i even posted on here. Why am i not seeing the decline? I do not want to see a decline, so i am trying to get some answers, but no one will believe what i am saying. I'm not saying a decline where i hunt is not coming, but it hasnt yet.

On some farms last year there was a great hatch, ive seen tons of jakes on most of the farms i hunt. This is the thing, why did some farms have a great hatch and some didn't? You would think the weather would be very similar in the areas i hunt. Truthfully, i watched a longbeard breed a hen on sunday on a farm where i killed one bird but had 4 more and 9 jakes running around.

To megalos comment, the only things i know of to reduce those stressors is shoot coyotes, provide better cover for nesting and brood rearing. Not sure about the nutrition because during growth those poults need a lot of energy to grow and the less energy they have to expend finding it, the healthier they will be. Now can a poult survive on poor nutrition, probably but its like feeding your dog bottom of the barrel dog food, it's not good for growing puppies. Another thing i do for poults is leave 1/2 the corn i plant standing for a year which creates great areas to bug with protection from predators and around that corn i plant wide strips of clover.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
megalomaniac":2dodc192 said:
Guys, you all are only scratching the surface... Think bigger, outside the box...

Simple question- 'why are the turkeys declining in TN?'... Simple answer- terrible hatch last year, terrible hatch 2 years ago. And yes, won't matter what the hatch is this year, next year will be worse than this year (unless you want to tag out on jakes).

Now for the thinking outside the box...

Simple question- 'why was the hatch terrible?'

In order to answer that, you have to look at what goes into a successful hatch... Males available to breed females, males successfully fertilizing females, females comfortable enough (lack of stress) to initiate nests, females undisturbed for 28 days while setting. Then after the hatch, weather appropriate for poult survival, mothering skills of the hen and relative lack of predators killing the poults (hawks, raccoons, coyotes, crows, etc). Growing turkeys don't have a problem getting fed, their diet is so varied they could survive on pine straw I almost believe- so food is never an issue.

The problem is, everyone assumes a poor hatch was due to predators... if we just got rid of all the nest raiders, the world would be perfect again. Or it's the weather's fault- and we can't control the weather. And don't get me wrong, those are HUGE factors in poult recruitment. But when you start to think outside the box, you begin to realize the other factors that compound the problem....

The ongoing study in TN is reavealing that nearly 1/3 hens don't bother initiating a nest... If that ends up being the final number, and if that number doesn't give you pause, there isn't any point in me continuing my discussion with you. But think deeper... WHY didn't those hens initiate a nest? About the only thing I know of in poultry that interrupts egg laying during the spring is poor nutrition and stress. Again, nutrition isn't an issue. But stress IS. An anxious flighty wild bird that is being disturbed by coyotes in March, then hunters nonstop during mid April when nests are initiated MAY significantly impact her desire to nest/ brood.

And another gripe about people not thinking outside the box regarding nest raiders... what many fail to understand is that after a hen starts setting, if the poults don't start developing inside the egg by around day 7-9, she will abandon the nest. Just because you find a bunch of broken up eggs, that does NOT mean she would have successfully hatched the following month. Many matings by toms are actually unsuccessful at fertilizing the hens, it's pretty easy to miss the mark when your pecker is only 2-3 mm in size. If the hen is going to lay that spring, she will lay the eggs whether they are fertile or not. During incubation, she will kick out the infertile eggs from the nest if others are developing. Thinking outside the box lets you realize that nest failures are probably not primarily caused by predation, although they are responsible for a large percentage of nest failures and even worse, loss of the hen herself while setting.

We also have to change our thinking regarding loss of adult birds. The initial studies done when turkeys were being reintroduced showed that virtually NO gobblers were ever killed by predators, and that virtually NO hens were killed by predators except during nesting. This is now going out the window. All the recent studies are pointing to an incredible loss of adult birds by coyotes who have adapted and learned how to aggressively and effectively kill adults. As a consequence, the old school thinking of 2.2 poults per hen in August is necessary for a stable population is also going out the window... it's probably going to take around 3 poults per hen just to maintain a stable population not counting hunting loss. Think about that... we've been around 1.5 PPH the past 2 years...

In summary, all this rambling is to make a case for maximizing nesting success... sure, removing nest predators is important, but it's probably just as important to ensure males are available throughout the season to fertilize hens, especially in the first half of active breeding season (which is the last week of March through the end of the second week of April on my farms). It may be even more important to allow hens to initiate nests undisturbed by hunting pressure and human intrusion. While I'm all in favor of reducing the gobbler limit, I know that it will NOT result in any improvement in poult recruitment UNLESS other season structure changes happen as well. I would STRONGY enourage each of you to recommend delaying season opening by 2 weeks to your commissioners. That may be the single best simple change TWRA could implement to improve nesting success.

WOW someone who actually used DATA to talk about a problem. THANK YOU!! (INSERT MIC DROP PIC HERE...LOL) We have had a wet spring for the past 2 years and droughts in the summer that have lead to a drop in poults. It takes about 2 years to truly see the effects then it takes another 2-3 years after that to recover. I grew up in VA were we had a very liberal fall season, 3 bird limit in spring, ALL RIFLE CAL allowed in spring and hunting had to stop at NOON for the 5 week season. Below are the links to the 2015 & 2016 reports VDGIF did and with 2017 spring summary. All are pretty good reading.

https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wp-conten ... gs2015.pdf

https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wp-conten ... s-2016.pdf

https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/ ... stsummary/
 
Shooter77":1q0j4xrs said:
megalomaniac":1q0j4xrs said:
Guys, you all are only scratching the surface... Think bigger, outside the box...

Simple question- 'why are the turkeys declining in TN?'... Simple answer- terrible hatch last year, terrible hatch 2 years ago. And yes, won't matter what the hatch is this year, next year will be worse than this year (unless you want to tag out on jakes).

Now for the thinking outside the box...

Simple question- 'why was the hatch terrible?'

In order to answer that, you have to look at what goes into a successful hatch... Males available to breed females, males successfully fertilizing females, females comfortable enough (lack of stress) to initiate nests, females undisturbed for 28 days while setting. Then after the hatch, weather appropriate for poult survival, mothering skills of the hen and relative lack of predators killing the poults (hawks, raccoons, coyotes, crows, etc). Growing turkeys don't have a problem getting fed, their diet is so varied they could survive on pine straw I almost believe- so food is never an issue.

The problem is, everyone assumes a poor hatch was due to predators... if we just got rid of all the nest raiders, the world would be perfect again. Or it's the weather's fault- and we can't control the weather. And don't get me wrong, those are HUGE factors in poult recruitment. But when you start to think outside the box, you begin to realize the other factors that compound the problem....

The ongoing study in TN is reavealing that nearly 1/3 hens don't bother initiating a nest... If that ends up being the final number, and if that number doesn't give you pause, there isn't any point in me continuing my discussion with you. But think deeper... WHY didn't those hens initiate a nest? About the only thing I know of in poultry that interrupts egg laying during the spring is poor nutrition and stress. Again, nutrition isn't an issue. But stress IS. An anxious flighty wild bird that is being disturbed by coyotes in March, then hunters nonstop during mid April when nests are initiated MAY significantly impact her desire to nest/ brood.

And another gripe about people not thinking outside the box regarding nest raiders... what many fail to understand is that after a hen starts setting, if the poults don't start developing inside the egg by around day 7-9, she will abandon the nest. Just because you find a bunch of broken up eggs, that does NOT mean she would have successfully hatched the following month. Many matings by toms are actually unsuccessful at fertilizing the hens, it's pretty easy to miss the mark when your pecker is only 2-3 mm in size. If the hen is going to lay that spring, she will lay the eggs whether they are fertile or not. During incubation, she will kick out the infertile eggs from the nest if others are developing. Thinking outside the box lets you realize that nest failures are probably not primarily caused by predation, although they are responsible for a large percentage of nest failures and even worse, loss of the hen herself while setting.

We also have to change our thinking regarding loss of adult birds. The initial studies done when turkeys were being reintroduced showed that virtually NO gobblers were ever killed by predators, and that virtually NO hens were killed by predators except during nesting. This is now going out the window. All the recent studies are pointing to an incredible loss of adult birds by coyotes who have adapted and learned how to aggressively and effectively kill adults. As a consequence, the old school thinking of 2.2 poults per hen in August is necessary for a stable population is also going out the window... it's probably going to take around 3 poults per hen just to maintain a stable population not counting hunting loss. Think about that... we've been around 1.5 PPH the past 2 years...

In summary, all this rambling is to make a case for maximizing nesting success... sure, removing nest predators is important, but it's probably just as important to ensure males are available throughout the season to fertilize hens, especially in the first half of active breeding season (which is the last week of March through the end of the second week of April on my farms). It may be even more important to allow hens to initiate nests undisturbed by hunting pressure and human intrusion. While I'm all in favor of reducing the gobbler limit, I know that it will NOT result in any improvement in poult recruitment UNLESS other season structure changes happen as well. I would STRONGY enourage each of you to recommend delaying season opening by 2 weeks to your commissioners. That may be the single best simple change TWRA could implement to improve nesting success.

WOW someone who actually used DATA to talk about a problem. THANK YOU!! (INSERT MIC DROP PIC HERE...LOL) We have had a wet spring for the past 2 years and droughts in the summer that have lead to a drop in poults. It takes about 2 years to truly see the effects then it takes another 2-3 years after that to recover. I grew up in VA were we had a very liberal fall season, 3 bird limit in spring, ALL RIFLE CAL allowed in spring and hunting had to stop at NOON for the 5 week season. Below are the links to the 2015 & 2016 reports VDGIF did and with 2017 spring summary. All are pretty good reading.

https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wp-conten ... gs2015.pdf

https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wp-conten ... s-2016.pdf

https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/ ... stsummary/
Its funny you say this because all i read was study shows... studies show.. and no particular published data was cited. Had i made the comment i would have been asked which studies, who were the lead and coauthors, what was their background and how long they had been out of school and who their parents are. Without citations this is all heresay.......BOMB dropped!


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Its funny you say this because all i read was study shows... studies show.. and no particular published data was cited. Had i made the comment i would have been asked which studies, who were the lead and coauthors, what was their background and how long they had been out of school and who their parents are. Without citations this is all heresay.......BOMB dropped!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

Hmmm.....not sure if you trying to take a jab at my comment with your post but it sure seems like. I was actually going to post in defense of you but now I think everyone is maybe right about you. :D
 
Shooter77":20sw3rgp said:
Its funny you say this because all i read was study shows... studies show.. and no particular published data was cited. Had i made the comment i would have been asked which studies, who were the lead and coauthors, what was their background and how long they had been out of school and who their parents are. Without citations this is all heresay.......BOMB dropped!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmmm.....not sure if you trying to take a jab at my comment with your post but it sure seems like. I was actually going to post in defense of you but now I think everyone is maybe right about you. :D[/quote]
No jab


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
GTK, I don't have the time, nor inclination to post supportive studies for the truths I speak. God blessed me with a near photographic memory, so it's very easy for me to spew esoteric data from papers I've read over a decade ago. I don't need to prove myself, and besides, there will always be lost causes who won't listen. I'm not speaking to the lost causes, I'm speaking to those who want to understand population dynamics of turkeys, and how to potentially reverse negative trends.

I was just like you once upon a time, with so many turkeys that I thought there would be no way possible they could go the way of the Dodo. But they can, and they did on my largest farm. I watched it happen over the course of a decade, and tried my best to stop it, but ultimately, one of the largest flocks of birds east of the MS died out.

I'm just grateful so many people are now recognizing and admitting something is wrong. Next step is to have TWRA act. Doing nothing or sticking heads in sand is not a viable option any longer. I hope you never experience a decline in your local flock, but realize it CAN happen.
 
Since we have graduated to dropping bombs now....
d3e70bf96c3f9ca019a61024b193227b.jpg


[emoji14]
Sorry guys, humor is important to a discussion.


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