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Phenotypical differences in mature bucks…

Back in the late 80's and early to mid 90's, I bow hunted Ft. Campbell a lot. I noticed several things about the bucks in those areas, mainly that they resembled Texas and Oklahoma deer, which in my estimation are the most beautiful.

Dark racks, short dished faces, compact bodies, and a fully mature buck would seldom dress more than 140 pounds. The bucks from the northern areas of the Base showed more Northern traits.

There was a world of difference looking at those compared to the bucks from the southeastern side of Montgomery county where I grew up. Those bucks had longer, mule like heads, white or yellow racks, and long Roman noses, and long, gangly bodies. Not saying they didn't excite me, but they put the "UG" in the "LY" compared to those Ft. Campbell bucks.

They were also harder to judge age because of those very noticeable traits, to me anyway. And I still notice those same traits today in the bucks that my friends kill from those areas.

"Any guy that would paint his truck like that would go to a Minister's funeral dressed in feathers." - Big Enos Burdette




SOOOO true!
Alabama bucks look so different from Illinois bucks.
Even AEDC bucks look dramatically different than Hamilton County bucks.

It's very amazing!
 
Every time I see a big buck pic, I have to remind myself of the bell curve. I remind myself that there are over 100,000 deer killed in TN every year. I remind myself location, location, location and luck.

Catman, how long are that bucks beams?
 
102 said:
Back in the late 80's and early to mid 90's, I bow hunted Ft. Campbell a lot. I noticed several things about the bucks in those areas, mainly that they resembled Texas and Oklahoma deer, which in my estimation are the most beautiful.

Dark racks, short dished faces, compact bodies, and a fully mature buck would seldom dress more than 140 pounds. The bucks from the northern areas of the Base showed more Northern traits.

There was a world of difference looking at those compared to the bucks from the southeastern side of Montgomery county where I grew up. Those bucks had longer, mule like heads, white or yellow racks, and long Roman noses, and long, gangly bodies. Not saying they didn't excite me, but they put the "UG" in the "LY" compared to those Ft. Campbell bucks.

They were also harder to judge age because of those very noticeable traits, to me anyway. And I still notice those same traits today in the bucks that my friends kill from those areas.

"Any guy that would paint his truck like that would go to a Minister's funeral dressed in feathers." - Big Enos Burdette




SOOOO true!
Alabama bucks look so different from Illinois bucks.
Even AEDC bucks look dramatically different than Hamilton County bucks.

It's very amazing!
Click to expand...
AEDC deer are weirdly small
 
Much of Middle Tennessee Soils are VERY good soils for growing big antlered deer.
The correlation to soil, the nutrition in the soil, and the nutrition coming from that soil is directly proportional to carrying capacity for that area and also has a lot to do with antler growth. (a no brainer yet often overlooked)
 
Hillbilly Hunter said:
There has been an unreal amount of bucks killed in southern middle Tennessee this year that are grossing over 160 and quite a few over 170 as well. I would be curious to know the age of these deer
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Dang right. I knew those areas produced some great deer, but what I've seen this year is super impressive. I'd love to know their ages too.
 
Lost Lake said:
Back in the late 80's and early to mid 90's, I bow hunted Ft. Campbell a lot. I noticed several things about the bucks in those areas, mainly that they resembled Texas and Oklahoma deer, which in my estimation are the most beautiful.

Dark racks, short dished faces, compact bodies, and a fully mature buck would seldom dress more than 140 pounds. The bucks from the northern areas of the Base showed more Northern traits.

There was a world of difference looking at those compared to the bucks from the southeastern side of Montgomery county where I grew up. Those bucks had longer, mule like heads, white or yellow racks, and long Roman noses, and long, gangly bodies. Not saying they didn't excite me, but they put the "UG" in the "LY" compared to those Ft. Campbell bucks.

They were also harder to judge age because of those very noticeable traits, to me anyway. And I still notice those same traits today in the bucks that my friends kill from those areas.
Click to expand...
Very few fort Campbell deer will field dress over 170lbs, most are gonna be 130-140. Their small bodies will make the rack look 10" bigger almost every time.
 
Roost 1 said:
Very few fort Campbell deer will field dress over 170lbs, most are gonna be 130-140. Their small bodies will make the rack look 10" bigger almost every time.
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I think the biggest bodied buck I can remember from my time hunting there was 158 pounds, from one of the northern areas.

Most of the archery only areas and the occasional southern rifle area would put out bucks in the 120-140 pound range, and they were older bucks for sure.

It was great times hunting there, and I miss a lot about it back then.
 
Roost 1 said:
Very few fort Campbell deer will field dress over 170lbs, most are gonna be 130-140. Their small bodies will make the rack look 10" bigger almost every time.
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Do you know why all those TV Hunting shows film in South Texas? Because the bucks' bodies are so small they make their antlers look massive. I've worked there, and mature bucks will LIVE WEIGH only 125-150 lbs. A 130 lb buck carry 160 antlers looks absolutely HUGE.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again: hunters get too wrapped up in the idea that localized traits are remnants of where deer were restored into the area from. However, DNA tests show that deer across the Southeast are Odocoileus Virginianus virginianus. Basically, Southeastern Whitetails, no matter where deer were restocked from. Deer moved in from other regions may have been the first there, but it didn't take long for Southeastern Whitetail genetics to move in and swamp the less adapted genetics of the restocked deer. Because of the whitetails social behavior of male dispersal, geographic gene flow in whitetails is very rapid and far-reaching. And because of their extreme genetic diversity within even localized populations, "better adapted" individuals rapidly swamp out lesser adapted genetics. Now that doesn't mean that deer in a given area won't carry genetic makers showing their local ancestors were restocked from "somewhere else," but these are not expressed genetic traits. This is very much like looking at our "Ancestry DNA" results. Phenotypically, I'm 100% Anglo-Saxon, displaying all the indicators of being English-German. However, slightly over 20% of my DNA markers are Scandinavian and Irish. Yet I display no Scandanavian or Irish characteristics, nor do any of my siblings. I still carry those DNA markers from my ancestors, but they are not "expressed" traits.
 
So before anyone asks it, how do deer in localized pockets display similar characteristics? When it comes to over-all body size, it is a combination of resources and genetic adaptation to those resources. For example, deer in one area have a level of resources they become adapted to. If the level is low, Natural Selection favors smaller bodies and antlers. It is far better in that environment to be able to survive on less resources, and that means deer that are smaller (as it requires less food quality to maintain a smaller body and grow less antler material every summer). In areas of exceptional resources, larger bodies are an advantage, as dominance usually favors larger-bodied deer.

In addition, some characteristics, such as antler shape, appear to be carried on the X chromosome, and is inherited from a buck's mother. Because all of the female deer in a doe social group are genetically related, they all will carry at least one X-chromosome with a particular antler shape. Half the bucks they produce will carry that antler shape. Year after year of spitting out bucks with 50% carry a particular antler shape causes that shape to become very, very commonplace in the region.
 
So this year I got two 8-point bucks, the first weighed around 120lbs, the second one was between 140-150 lbs, both on the hoof. The first one though, seems to be older than the second one. I am not good at aging but from what I have seen in the videos about the jaws, I'd guess the first to be a 3.5 and the second a 2.5 yo. But being that both of these were from the same area, and same season, they are very simular and very representative of the deer in my area. I have a bunch of farmland around me, with corn for sure but probably other crops rotated in as well, and of course the acorns were abundant this year. So, I would agree that the area has a lot to do with their characteristics, as I have hunted areas that were real dense, and most of the bucks tended to have basket racks, while those in more open landscapes tended to have the spread a bit wider.

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Omega said:
So this year I got two 8-point bucks, the first weighed around 120lbs, the second one was between 140-150 lbs, both on the hoof.
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Wow, what a difference. In my area, 2 1/2s will live weigh between 160 and 180. 3 1/2s, 170-220. 4 1/2+ 190-240.
 
redblood said:
Catmans thread got me thinking. Since, as hunters, we most often evaluate antler and physical /structural characteristics in deer to assess age. I think we assume that their are certain norms in place as to how deer look and develop with the passing of time. When we kill a deer we oogle over the rack and the neck and the weight of the animals and make assumptions about maturity. My question is, are deer like people in the fact that age, breakdown, add muscle, hold muscle, loose muscle at different rates. Or are they all relatively the same in those regards, assuming similar levels of health/ nutrition. Are there physical superior (not antler) specimens like hershel walker strolling around that will look like 5.5 yr old at 2.5 and are there Pee Wee Hermans around that will look like yearlings at 7.5. Just curious as to your thoughts
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I personally believe it is both regional genetics, and random "stud" genetics within each region.

And I don't necessarily think it is as rare as we think. The problem (IMO) is that we kill entirely too many bucks in TN at 2.5 or younger, and as a result, those deer just never get to that 3.5-4.5 YO age where their skeleton has somewhat maxed out. Think about the physical changes some humans make from 16 years old to their senior year, and into college.

The best evidence of this is if you have ever had the chance to hunt a property that hasn't been hunted in 4-5 years.

I was absolutely stunned the first time I ran cameras on a Madison county property that hadn't been hunted in 4 years. There were 5 mature bucks seen regularly, all of them were incredible in their own way. 2 in the mid 140's, one a double main beam, and one a non-typical but not that big antler wise but HUGE body. Once we started hunting it, those deer were Gone with a capital G. There are 3 of us that hunt the property now, and 1 of the guys is pretty much "has horns, I'm shooting" and man has it impacted the quality of hunting there.

We don't see mature bucks either with our eyes or on camera.
 
Omega said:
So this year I got two 8-point bucks, the first weighed around 120lbs, the second one was between 140-150 lbs, both on the hoof. The first one though, seems to be older than the second one. I am not good at aging but from what I have seen in the videos about the jaws, I'd guess the first to be a 3.5 and the second a 2.5 yo. But being that both of these were from the same area, and same season, they are very simular and very representative of the deer in my area. I have a bunch of farmland around me, with corn for sure but probably other crops rotated in as well, and of course the acorns were abundant this year. So, I would agree that the area has a lot to do with their characteristics, as I have hunted areas that were real dense, and most of the bucks tended to have basket racks, while those in more open landscapes tended to have the spread a bit wider.
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Years back I had access to family land in Benton county. The first buck I ever shot there was a 2.5yo that weighed 120lbs. He also happened to score 120.

A lot of those deer were rack heavy, body small on that property.

While here in Henderson county I would say the avg 2.5 yo is 150-160, 3.5 yo 180-190 and 4.5 yo 200-220.
 
catman529 said:
AEDC deer are weirdly small
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I hunt near AEDC and yes, they're tiny. My taxidermist brother was visiting from Ohio last year when I shot a 10pt in velvet. On camera the deer looked like a 140's class. We specifically targeted him for the velvet hunt. As we walked up on it he burst out laughing because the closer we got, the smaller it got. The thing didn't reach 120 and probably didn't weigh as much. I tried explaining the discrepancy to him before he arrived but he didn't believe there could be that much difference.....until he saw it first hand.

One of the biologists on base works with my wife. I'll have her inquire about the reason behind it. I've heard it's because this area was stocked mostly with coastal AL deer, but I don't know that as fact. I'd sure like to know though. I see pics of good bucks being taken all over TN but almost never see a big one from right here in this general vicinity. I roll with it. It's still deer hunting. But dang it is weird.
 

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