backyardtndeer
Well-Known Member
This tells about the distribution of deer in this state and about the influence https://cleanairtn.org/twra/pdfs/deerrestoration.pdf.
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Phenotypical differences in mature bucks…
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BSK
Well-Known Member
Habitat quality drives current deer size in TN, not restocked genetics, which are long gone as expressed traits.
catman529
Well-Known Member
Here's something I'd really like your opinion on.
10 Highlights From New Deer Science You Can Use | National Deer Association
www.deerassociation.com
Scroll down to the map of Arkansas. It says that they found deer with distinct Wisconsin genetics in one area that had been restocked with Wisconsin deer.
On the contrary, there's another article on the NDA website that says what you just said about southern deer genetics taking over, and no Wisconsin genetics left.
The Case of the Vanishing Wisconsin Deer Genetics - NDA
“We’ve got big whitetails because this area was restocked with deer from Wisconsin.” I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard a statement like this one, and if you hunt in the South like I do, you’ve heard it too. There’s probably no genetic connection whatsoever between Wisconsin...
www.deerassociation.com
Interesting theory. What habitat quality or lack thereof could explain a herd of notably tiny deer? On paper Manchester should be an ideal area for deer. Barring the Mississippi River delta, there aren't many areas in TN with more ag. AEDC in particular is hardwood forest but it's surrounded by ag. If the deer are small due to habitat, it's not food, cover, or water related. They're not unhealthy. They're just small.
tree_ghost
Well-Known Member
I believe they are both two year olds.So this year I got two 8-point bucks, the first weighed around 120lbs, the second one was between 140-150 lbs, both on the hoof. The first one though, seems to be older than the second one. I am not good at aging but from what I have seen in the videos about the jaws, I'd guess the first to be a 3.5 and the second a 2.5 yo. But being that both of these were from the same area, and same season, they are very simular and very representative of the deer in my area. I have a bunch of farmland around me, with corn for sure but probably other crops rotated in as well, and of course the acorns were abundant this year. So, I would agree that the area has a lot to do with their characteristics, as I have hunted areas that were real dense, and most of the bucks tended to have basket racks, while those in more open landscapes tended to have the spread a bit wider.
backyardtndeer
Well-Known Member
Very interesting conversation. In the area I hunt, the western edge of East Tennessee, mature bucks display pretty big body sizes with smaller racks. I'd say an average 4.5 year old buck here would weight 200-220 lbs and score probably 115-125 average.
BSK
Well-Known Member
BSK
Well-Known Member
Again, these studies are looking at ancestry markers, not expressed phenotypic markers. Are the Wisconsin ancestry deer expressing Borealis traits? If not, they're not Wisconsin deer. They are Southeastern Whitetails with Wisconsin ancestry.Here's something I'd really like your opinion on.
10 Highlights From New Deer Science You Can Use | National Deer Association
Scroll down to the map of Arkansas. It says that they found deer with distinct Wisconsin genetics in one area that had been restocked with Wisconsin deer.
On the contrary, there's another article on the NDA website that says what you just said about southern deer genetics taking over, and no Wisconsin genetics left.
This article however is from 2012, while the article with the Arkansas map is from 2021. What are your thoughts?The Case of the Vanishing Wisconsin Deer Genetics - NDA
“We’ve got big whitetails because this area was restocked with deer from Wisconsin.” I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard a statement like this one, and if you hunt in the South like I do, you’ve heard it too. There’s probably no genetic connection whatsoever between Wisconsin...
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Some deer get big and some do not. I recall taking a very small doe to a check station in Northwest Georgia at a WMA in fact. That doe field-dressed 69 lb I was told that it certainly was five and a half years old. I was astounded.
Most of the talk about size and age seems to be concerning bucks. One thing I have noticed about does is that the biggest and I guess older ones seem to get that long horsey face. Where there is a straight line from the forehead to the nose. Anyone else notice this?
Most of the talk about size and age seems to be concerning bucks. One thing I have noticed about does is that the biggest and I guess older ones seem to get that long horsey face. Where there is a straight line from the forehead to the nose. Anyone else notice this?
MidTn Turf grows tens of thousands of acres of sod here annually, and we have 4 grain elevators within a 10mi radius to handle all the ag produced. The nurseries that make McMinnville the nursery capitol of the world begin at Manchester's city limits. The Elk River brings sediment from the Cumberland Plateau down to one side of the valley while the Duck River brings it from the highlands of Woodbury to the other side of the valley, only a few miles apart. It's hard to reconcile any of that with poor soil. Could soil quality be so low that it significantly stunts & limits deer size, yet still be exploited for so much ag production?
Now herd density could possibly be argued, but there should be noticeable signs of that. While there are high deer numbers it doesn't seem any higher than other ag areas. They aren't overrun or rampant or starving. On the high side of normal maybe, but still inside of normal. It sure doesn't seem like they are so overpopulated that they've become midgets.
BSK
Well-Known Member
We call those "banana-nosed" does. And yes, their faces appear very long at maturity. But I never try to age does beyond 2 1/2. It's just guess work beyond that.
My grandad killed one there in 68 that field dressed over 180#....Times have changed I guess....
BSK
Well-Known Member
I didn't say poor soil, I said "soil quality." Soil quality is a huge range and can vary dramatically across short distances. My place has very poor soil but is directly adjacent to some of the best soil in western Middle TN. Yet that top-line soil for the region I'm adjacent to can't hold a candle to the glaciated soils of the Midwest and Plains. It's a range. I doubt many would consider the soils of TN west of the Tennessee River to be poor. Lots of agriculture in that area. But the Tennessee River is basically the dividing line between the Mesozoic and Cenozoic sandy, silty, clay soils of Western TN and the Paleozoic limestone soil of Middle TN. A dramatic difference exists between body and antler sizes from one side of the river to the other. The Paleozoic limestone soils east of the river produce larger antlers per age-class but smaller bodies per age-class than on the western side, in the sandier soils.
I hate to say this, but I have met very few hunters who can accurately identify deer over-population, or at least herd densities that are producing an adverse effect on individual animal performance. When I first started working in this business, time and again I would meet landowners who would tell me their property doesn't have an over-population problem, yet everywhere on the property and in data from the deer themselves were signs of over-population. Over-population is not a "cut-off" point. As herd density increases, herd performance declines. Herds perform best at the lowest densities (in comparison to resources available). That's why, when hunting seasons were first opened, some true monsters were killed, some still being the largest bucks ever taken from each area. Why? Because of the very low herd densities in the newly-opened-to-hunting areas. In a low-density herd, each deer can pick and choose between the very best resources. In a higher density herd, more mouths are sharing the best resources and those resources get spread thin. Eventually, as herd density increases, the majority of each deer's diet is not the best quality resources because those are getting eaten away. And the full year's diet must be factored in. Even in productive agricultural areas, where deer have exceptional resources in summer, what do the deer have in the dead of winter, when all crops have been harvested? Even in an agricultural region, deer can experience nutritional deficiencies in winter that negatively affect growth and development.
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I agree
catman529
Well-Known Member
I think that's more genetic than anything. My oldest doe was on the small side. I've killed a few horse headed does though. They are usually mature since the skeleton is done growing but not necessarily old. My 11 point buck had a horse head and was only 3.5. Some deer just built different
